Can someone explain how this makes sense electrically?What could be causing there to be no power at my...

Count the occurrence of each unique word in the file

why `nmap 192.168.1.97` returns less services than `nmap 127.0.0.1`?

Intuition of generalized eigenvector.

What does chmod -u do?

Creepy dinosaur pc game identification

What prevents the use of a multi-segment ILS for non-straight approaches?

How to implement a feedback to keep the DC gain at zero for this conceptual passive filter?

Is this toilet slogan correct usage of the English language?

"Spoil" vs "Ruin"

Store Credit Card Information in Password Manager?

Pre-mixing cryogenic fuels and using only one fuel tank

Drawing ramified coverings with tikz

Fear of getting stuck on one programming language / technology that is not used in my country

Is the U.S. Code copyrighted by the Government?

Why do we read the Megillah by night and by day?

Electoral considerations aside, what are potential benefits, for the US, of policy changes proposed by the tweet recognizing Golan annexation?

Open a doc from terminal, but not by its name

I am looking for the correct translation of love for the phrase "in this sign love"

Is a bound state a stationary state?

What is Cash Advance APR?

How do you respond to a colleague from another team when they're wrongly expecting that you'll help them?

What are the purposes of autoencoders?

Are the IPv6 address space and IPv4 address space completely disjoint?

Approximating irrational number to rational number



Can someone explain how this makes sense electrically?


What could be causing there to be no power at my ceiling fixture?How to connect two dimmers to control two sets of lights independentlyHow do I connect a new fixture to a box with two black and two white wires?Two lights on a 3-Way Circuit with Separate DimmersIs it okay for an electrical switch to get warm?One Circuit Tripping Another CircuitWhere to locate light switches?How can I wire 3 Lutron Caseta dimmer switches in bathroom?3-Way Switch won't turn on lights if dimmer is set to lowKitchen dimmer dims lights in adjacent room, but not always













2















The wiring in my house is... odd. Nearly every pair of outlets has one of the outlets connected to a light switch. Sometimes that switch is quite far from the outlet even when there are other closer switches that seem to control nothing at all. Sometimes that switch also controls overhead lighting, which makes no sense to me from a design standpoint. Sometimes that switch is a dimmer switch, which is a really horrible idea as if you plug anything other than a light bulb into it, like some electronics, the dimmer switch could do them a lot of damage. One such dimmer switch is also connected to a ceiling fan, and setting the switch to anything less than full does not change the speed of the fan, it just makes it a lot noisier (AC induction motor, obviously).



There are light fixtures that don't seem to have any power to them and aren't controlled by any switch, though I could believe the switch might just be hiding somewhere. There are also switches that seem to control absolutely nothing, though I could believe I just haven't found what they're connected to.



The oddest thing I have found though has to do with the circuit breakers around overhead lighting. I have a chandelier in my dining room that is connected to a dimmer switch. When I moved in, all of the bulbs were incandescents, and I wanted to be more energy efficient, so I replaced them all with dimmable LED bulbs. Now however, I could not turn the chandelier fully off, with the dimmer switch all the way down, the lights still dimly shone. This had never been an issue before, but I thought it probably meant the dimmer switch was faulty, and it was just the different voltage response curves of the incandescents versus the LEDs that meant it had never been noticed before, so I set out to replace the switch.



Now there are two circuit breakers that are relevant to this chandelier. One is labeled "dining room," the other is labeled "lights." As far as I can tell, the dining room breaker controls all of the outlets in the dining room area, while the lights breaker controls all of the overhead lighting in the house.



Here's where the odd part comes in. If I turn off the dining room breaker, the lights stay lit. I have turn off the lights breaker to switch off the lights. However, if I only turn off the lights breaker, and go into the switch panel with my voltmeter, I am still detecting 100V AC across the switch (with it off), even though the lights stay off when I turn the switch on. In order to remove the power I was detecting, I have to also turn off the dining room breaker, even though the lights were staying on when I switched that off.



This conforms to no type of electrical theory with which I am familiar, though there might be some peculiarity of household wiring I don't know about that explains this. Can anyone tell me what might be going on?










share|improve this question







New contributor




Joel Croteau is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

























    2















    The wiring in my house is... odd. Nearly every pair of outlets has one of the outlets connected to a light switch. Sometimes that switch is quite far from the outlet even when there are other closer switches that seem to control nothing at all. Sometimes that switch also controls overhead lighting, which makes no sense to me from a design standpoint. Sometimes that switch is a dimmer switch, which is a really horrible idea as if you plug anything other than a light bulb into it, like some electronics, the dimmer switch could do them a lot of damage. One such dimmer switch is also connected to a ceiling fan, and setting the switch to anything less than full does not change the speed of the fan, it just makes it a lot noisier (AC induction motor, obviously).



    There are light fixtures that don't seem to have any power to them and aren't controlled by any switch, though I could believe the switch might just be hiding somewhere. There are also switches that seem to control absolutely nothing, though I could believe I just haven't found what they're connected to.



    The oddest thing I have found though has to do with the circuit breakers around overhead lighting. I have a chandelier in my dining room that is connected to a dimmer switch. When I moved in, all of the bulbs were incandescents, and I wanted to be more energy efficient, so I replaced them all with dimmable LED bulbs. Now however, I could not turn the chandelier fully off, with the dimmer switch all the way down, the lights still dimly shone. This had never been an issue before, but I thought it probably meant the dimmer switch was faulty, and it was just the different voltage response curves of the incandescents versus the LEDs that meant it had never been noticed before, so I set out to replace the switch.



    Now there are two circuit breakers that are relevant to this chandelier. One is labeled "dining room," the other is labeled "lights." As far as I can tell, the dining room breaker controls all of the outlets in the dining room area, while the lights breaker controls all of the overhead lighting in the house.



    Here's where the odd part comes in. If I turn off the dining room breaker, the lights stay lit. I have turn off the lights breaker to switch off the lights. However, if I only turn off the lights breaker, and go into the switch panel with my voltmeter, I am still detecting 100V AC across the switch (with it off), even though the lights stay off when I turn the switch on. In order to remove the power I was detecting, I have to also turn off the dining room breaker, even though the lights were staying on when I switched that off.



    This conforms to no type of electrical theory with which I am familiar, though there might be some peculiarity of household wiring I don't know about that explains this. Can anyone tell me what might be going on?










    share|improve this question







    New contributor




    Joel Croteau is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.























      2












      2








      2








      The wiring in my house is... odd. Nearly every pair of outlets has one of the outlets connected to a light switch. Sometimes that switch is quite far from the outlet even when there are other closer switches that seem to control nothing at all. Sometimes that switch also controls overhead lighting, which makes no sense to me from a design standpoint. Sometimes that switch is a dimmer switch, which is a really horrible idea as if you plug anything other than a light bulb into it, like some electronics, the dimmer switch could do them a lot of damage. One such dimmer switch is also connected to a ceiling fan, and setting the switch to anything less than full does not change the speed of the fan, it just makes it a lot noisier (AC induction motor, obviously).



      There are light fixtures that don't seem to have any power to them and aren't controlled by any switch, though I could believe the switch might just be hiding somewhere. There are also switches that seem to control absolutely nothing, though I could believe I just haven't found what they're connected to.



      The oddest thing I have found though has to do with the circuit breakers around overhead lighting. I have a chandelier in my dining room that is connected to a dimmer switch. When I moved in, all of the bulbs were incandescents, and I wanted to be more energy efficient, so I replaced them all with dimmable LED bulbs. Now however, I could not turn the chandelier fully off, with the dimmer switch all the way down, the lights still dimly shone. This had never been an issue before, but I thought it probably meant the dimmer switch was faulty, and it was just the different voltage response curves of the incandescents versus the LEDs that meant it had never been noticed before, so I set out to replace the switch.



      Now there are two circuit breakers that are relevant to this chandelier. One is labeled "dining room," the other is labeled "lights." As far as I can tell, the dining room breaker controls all of the outlets in the dining room area, while the lights breaker controls all of the overhead lighting in the house.



      Here's where the odd part comes in. If I turn off the dining room breaker, the lights stay lit. I have turn off the lights breaker to switch off the lights. However, if I only turn off the lights breaker, and go into the switch panel with my voltmeter, I am still detecting 100V AC across the switch (with it off), even though the lights stay off when I turn the switch on. In order to remove the power I was detecting, I have to also turn off the dining room breaker, even though the lights were staying on when I switched that off.



      This conforms to no type of electrical theory with which I am familiar, though there might be some peculiarity of household wiring I don't know about that explains this. Can anyone tell me what might be going on?










      share|improve this question







      New contributor




      Joel Croteau is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.












      The wiring in my house is... odd. Nearly every pair of outlets has one of the outlets connected to a light switch. Sometimes that switch is quite far from the outlet even when there are other closer switches that seem to control nothing at all. Sometimes that switch also controls overhead lighting, which makes no sense to me from a design standpoint. Sometimes that switch is a dimmer switch, which is a really horrible idea as if you plug anything other than a light bulb into it, like some electronics, the dimmer switch could do them a lot of damage. One such dimmer switch is also connected to a ceiling fan, and setting the switch to anything less than full does not change the speed of the fan, it just makes it a lot noisier (AC induction motor, obviously).



      There are light fixtures that don't seem to have any power to them and aren't controlled by any switch, though I could believe the switch might just be hiding somewhere. There are also switches that seem to control absolutely nothing, though I could believe I just haven't found what they're connected to.



      The oddest thing I have found though has to do with the circuit breakers around overhead lighting. I have a chandelier in my dining room that is connected to a dimmer switch. When I moved in, all of the bulbs were incandescents, and I wanted to be more energy efficient, so I replaced them all with dimmable LED bulbs. Now however, I could not turn the chandelier fully off, with the dimmer switch all the way down, the lights still dimly shone. This had never been an issue before, but I thought it probably meant the dimmer switch was faulty, and it was just the different voltage response curves of the incandescents versus the LEDs that meant it had never been noticed before, so I set out to replace the switch.



      Now there are two circuit breakers that are relevant to this chandelier. One is labeled "dining room," the other is labeled "lights." As far as I can tell, the dining room breaker controls all of the outlets in the dining room area, while the lights breaker controls all of the overhead lighting in the house.



      Here's where the odd part comes in. If I turn off the dining room breaker, the lights stay lit. I have turn off the lights breaker to switch off the lights. However, if I only turn off the lights breaker, and go into the switch panel with my voltmeter, I am still detecting 100V AC across the switch (with it off), even though the lights stay off when I turn the switch on. In order to remove the power I was detecting, I have to also turn off the dining room breaker, even though the lights were staying on when I switched that off.



      This conforms to no type of electrical theory with which I am familiar, though there might be some peculiarity of household wiring I don't know about that explains this. Can anyone tell me what might be going on?







      electrical lighting circuit-breaker led dimmer-switch






      share|improve this question







      New contributor




      Joel Croteau is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      share|improve this question







      New contributor




      Joel Croteau is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question






      New contributor




      Joel Croteau is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      asked 1 hour ago









      Joel CroteauJoel Croteau

      1134




      1134




      New contributor




      Joel Croteau is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.





      New contributor





      Joel Croteau is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






      Joel Croteau is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          2















          However, if I only turn off the lights breaker, and go into the switch panel with my voltmeter, I am still detecting 100V AC across the switch (with it off), even though the lights stay off when I turn the switch on. … Can anyone tell me what might be going on?




          Coupling between wires (inductance and capacitance in parallel wires).



          You say you have strange long runs between outlets and switches — if any of these extra lengths run in parallel, this is a great environment for the voltage from one to be induced in the other if it's disconnected.



          If you try putting a load, like a small light bulb, across that 100 V, it will vanish (read 0 V), because there is no significant current capacity in this coupling






          share|improve this answer































            1














            Run down in laymens




            1. Light switch to outlet. You will see a lot of these in older homes. By code for a long time in a lot of areas you had to be able to turn on a light from a switch accessible when entering a room. Easiest and cost effective way to do this is put switch to outlet. I had six rooms in my house like this.


            2. Dimmer to outlet. For sure not code. You are correct that it could damage electronics and could be a huge fire/safey issue. Please replace this with a regular switch ASAP - $5 for a quick fix while you work things out.


            3. Dimmer to ceiling fan. Can't do this. If the ceiling fan has two hots coming into the box from fan you can buy a fan control + dimmer. If there is only one hot then you just install a switch and it is off/on for both.


            4. Light switches doing nothing. You must do a complete mapping assessment of your house. With a house like this it might take 3-6 hours. But you have to turn off one circuit at a time and figure out what doesn't work. You must also for 100% sure make sure that each switch is tested for working on every light and outlet (have a known working bulb). Write down every outlet and switch in a spreadsheet marking room, location, what it controls, and circuit.


            5. You cannot expect to plug LED bulbs into old dimmers and expect them to work. You need to put in a dimmer that is suitable for the type of LED you are installing.


            6. The dining room lights - need more info.







            share|improve this answer























              Your Answer








              StackExchange.ready(function() {
              var channelOptions = {
              tags: "".split(" "),
              id: "73"
              };
              initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

              StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
              // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
              if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
              StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
              createEditor();
              });
              }
              else {
              createEditor();
              }
              });

              function createEditor() {
              StackExchange.prepareEditor({
              heartbeatType: 'answer',
              autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
              convertImagesToLinks: false,
              noModals: true,
              showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
              reputationToPostImages: null,
              bindNavPrevention: true,
              postfix: "",
              imageUploader: {
              brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
              contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
              allowUrls: true
              },
              noCode: true, onDemand: true,
              discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
              ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
              });


              }
              });






              Joel Croteau is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










              draft saved

              draft discarded


















              StackExchange.ready(
              function () {
              StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fdiy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f160497%2fcan-someone-explain-how-this-makes-sense-electrically%23new-answer', 'question_page');
              }
              );

              Post as a guest















              Required, but never shown

























              2 Answers
              2






              active

              oldest

              votes








              2 Answers
              2






              active

              oldest

              votes









              active

              oldest

              votes






              active

              oldest

              votes









              2















              However, if I only turn off the lights breaker, and go into the switch panel with my voltmeter, I am still detecting 100V AC across the switch (with it off), even though the lights stay off when I turn the switch on. … Can anyone tell me what might be going on?




              Coupling between wires (inductance and capacitance in parallel wires).



              You say you have strange long runs between outlets and switches — if any of these extra lengths run in parallel, this is a great environment for the voltage from one to be induced in the other if it's disconnected.



              If you try putting a load, like a small light bulb, across that 100 V, it will vanish (read 0 V), because there is no significant current capacity in this coupling






              share|improve this answer




























                2















                However, if I only turn off the lights breaker, and go into the switch panel with my voltmeter, I am still detecting 100V AC across the switch (with it off), even though the lights stay off when I turn the switch on. … Can anyone tell me what might be going on?




                Coupling between wires (inductance and capacitance in parallel wires).



                You say you have strange long runs between outlets and switches — if any of these extra lengths run in parallel, this is a great environment for the voltage from one to be induced in the other if it's disconnected.



                If you try putting a load, like a small light bulb, across that 100 V, it will vanish (read 0 V), because there is no significant current capacity in this coupling






                share|improve this answer


























                  2












                  2








                  2








                  However, if I only turn off the lights breaker, and go into the switch panel with my voltmeter, I am still detecting 100V AC across the switch (with it off), even though the lights stay off when I turn the switch on. … Can anyone tell me what might be going on?




                  Coupling between wires (inductance and capacitance in parallel wires).



                  You say you have strange long runs between outlets and switches — if any of these extra lengths run in parallel, this is a great environment for the voltage from one to be induced in the other if it's disconnected.



                  If you try putting a load, like a small light bulb, across that 100 V, it will vanish (read 0 V), because there is no significant current capacity in this coupling






                  share|improve this answer














                  However, if I only turn off the lights breaker, and go into the switch panel with my voltmeter, I am still detecting 100V AC across the switch (with it off), even though the lights stay off when I turn the switch on. … Can anyone tell me what might be going on?




                  Coupling between wires (inductance and capacitance in parallel wires).



                  You say you have strange long runs between outlets and switches — if any of these extra lengths run in parallel, this is a great environment for the voltage from one to be induced in the other if it's disconnected.



                  If you try putting a load, like a small light bulb, across that 100 V, it will vanish (read 0 V), because there is no significant current capacity in this coupling







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 1 hour ago









                  Kevin ReidKevin Reid

                  1,3691521




                  1,3691521

























                      1














                      Run down in laymens




                      1. Light switch to outlet. You will see a lot of these in older homes. By code for a long time in a lot of areas you had to be able to turn on a light from a switch accessible when entering a room. Easiest and cost effective way to do this is put switch to outlet. I had six rooms in my house like this.


                      2. Dimmer to outlet. For sure not code. You are correct that it could damage electronics and could be a huge fire/safey issue. Please replace this with a regular switch ASAP - $5 for a quick fix while you work things out.


                      3. Dimmer to ceiling fan. Can't do this. If the ceiling fan has two hots coming into the box from fan you can buy a fan control + dimmer. If there is only one hot then you just install a switch and it is off/on for both.


                      4. Light switches doing nothing. You must do a complete mapping assessment of your house. With a house like this it might take 3-6 hours. But you have to turn off one circuit at a time and figure out what doesn't work. You must also for 100% sure make sure that each switch is tested for working on every light and outlet (have a known working bulb). Write down every outlet and switch in a spreadsheet marking room, location, what it controls, and circuit.


                      5. You cannot expect to plug LED bulbs into old dimmers and expect them to work. You need to put in a dimmer that is suitable for the type of LED you are installing.


                      6. The dining room lights - need more info.







                      share|improve this answer




























                        1














                        Run down in laymens




                        1. Light switch to outlet. You will see a lot of these in older homes. By code for a long time in a lot of areas you had to be able to turn on a light from a switch accessible when entering a room. Easiest and cost effective way to do this is put switch to outlet. I had six rooms in my house like this.


                        2. Dimmer to outlet. For sure not code. You are correct that it could damage electronics and could be a huge fire/safey issue. Please replace this with a regular switch ASAP - $5 for a quick fix while you work things out.


                        3. Dimmer to ceiling fan. Can't do this. If the ceiling fan has two hots coming into the box from fan you can buy a fan control + dimmer. If there is only one hot then you just install a switch and it is off/on for both.


                        4. Light switches doing nothing. You must do a complete mapping assessment of your house. With a house like this it might take 3-6 hours. But you have to turn off one circuit at a time and figure out what doesn't work. You must also for 100% sure make sure that each switch is tested for working on every light and outlet (have a known working bulb). Write down every outlet and switch in a spreadsheet marking room, location, what it controls, and circuit.


                        5. You cannot expect to plug LED bulbs into old dimmers and expect them to work. You need to put in a dimmer that is suitable for the type of LED you are installing.


                        6. The dining room lights - need more info.







                        share|improve this answer


























                          1












                          1








                          1







                          Run down in laymens




                          1. Light switch to outlet. You will see a lot of these in older homes. By code for a long time in a lot of areas you had to be able to turn on a light from a switch accessible when entering a room. Easiest and cost effective way to do this is put switch to outlet. I had six rooms in my house like this.


                          2. Dimmer to outlet. For sure not code. You are correct that it could damage electronics and could be a huge fire/safey issue. Please replace this with a regular switch ASAP - $5 for a quick fix while you work things out.


                          3. Dimmer to ceiling fan. Can't do this. If the ceiling fan has two hots coming into the box from fan you can buy a fan control + dimmer. If there is only one hot then you just install a switch and it is off/on for both.


                          4. Light switches doing nothing. You must do a complete mapping assessment of your house. With a house like this it might take 3-6 hours. But you have to turn off one circuit at a time and figure out what doesn't work. You must also for 100% sure make sure that each switch is tested for working on every light and outlet (have a known working bulb). Write down every outlet and switch in a spreadsheet marking room, location, what it controls, and circuit.


                          5. You cannot expect to plug LED bulbs into old dimmers and expect them to work. You need to put in a dimmer that is suitable for the type of LED you are installing.


                          6. The dining room lights - need more info.







                          share|improve this answer













                          Run down in laymens




                          1. Light switch to outlet. You will see a lot of these in older homes. By code for a long time in a lot of areas you had to be able to turn on a light from a switch accessible when entering a room. Easiest and cost effective way to do this is put switch to outlet. I had six rooms in my house like this.


                          2. Dimmer to outlet. For sure not code. You are correct that it could damage electronics and could be a huge fire/safey issue. Please replace this with a regular switch ASAP - $5 for a quick fix while you work things out.


                          3. Dimmer to ceiling fan. Can't do this. If the ceiling fan has two hots coming into the box from fan you can buy a fan control + dimmer. If there is only one hot then you just install a switch and it is off/on for both.


                          4. Light switches doing nothing. You must do a complete mapping assessment of your house. With a house like this it might take 3-6 hours. But you have to turn off one circuit at a time and figure out what doesn't work. You must also for 100% sure make sure that each switch is tested for working on every light and outlet (have a known working bulb). Write down every outlet and switch in a spreadsheet marking room, location, what it controls, and circuit.


                          5. You cannot expect to plug LED bulbs into old dimmers and expect them to work. You need to put in a dimmer that is suitable for the type of LED you are installing.


                          6. The dining room lights - need more info.








                          share|improve this answer












                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer










                          answered 1 hour ago









                          DMooreDMoore

                          28.6k1351120




                          28.6k1351120






















                              Joel Croteau is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










                              draft saved

                              draft discarded


















                              Joel Croteau is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.













                              Joel Croteau is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












                              Joel Croteau is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















                              Thanks for contributing an answer to Home Improvement Stack Exchange!


                              • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                              But avoid



                              • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                              • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                              To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                              draft saved


                              draft discarded














                              StackExchange.ready(
                              function () {
                              StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fdiy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f160497%2fcan-someone-explain-how-this-makes-sense-electrically%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                              }
                              );

                              Post as a guest















                              Required, but never shown





















































                              Required, but never shown














                              Required, but never shown












                              Required, but never shown







                              Required, but never shown

































                              Required, but never shown














                              Required, but never shown












                              Required, but never shown







                              Required, but never shown







                              Popular posts from this blog

                              ORA-01691 (unable to extend lob segment) even though my tablespace has AUTOEXTEND onORA-01692: unable to...

                              Always On Availability groups resolving state after failover - Remote harden of transaction...

                              Circunscripción electoral de Guipúzcoa Referencias Menú de navegaciónLas claves del sistema electoral en...