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Is layered encryption more secure than long passwords?


Is there a limit on the layers of encryption a file can have?Using dynamic keysSecurity of PGP for Long-Term StorageHow secure is GPG symmetric encryption?How to Conceal/Detect PGP Symmetric Algorithm UsedSecure self-concealing symmetric encryption (non-verifiable decryption)?OpenPGP (RFC4880) - do you agree with my SimpleS2K (string-to-key) implementation?What is the most robust available algo for GPG symmetric encryption?Seeking Review for Authentication and Message Encryption ApproachSecurely storing AES key with public key cryptographyIs there a limit on the layers of encryption a file can have?













15















The comments in this question debate about the added security of multi-layered encryption. There seems to be some disagreement, and I thought a proper question would be helpful here.



So, to provide some common background, consider the following two scenarios:





  1. I apply symmetric encryption to a given file, as follows:



    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt


    to which I add the password "mydogisamazing"




  2. I apply four layers of encryption to a given file, as follows:



    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt
    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt.gpg
    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt.gpg.gpg
    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt.gpg.gpg.gpg


    where the passwords supply to each are, respectively: "amazing" "is" "dog" "my" (so, when I decrypt all the layers, I have entered "my" "dog" "is" "amazing")




Is option 2 more secure than option 1? Knowing almost nothing about encryption security, it seems to me it is, because anyone wanting to break in would have to run some password algorithm four times, whereas in option 1 the algorithm needs to be run 1 time only. What if different chiper-algo were used instead of the same?



All in all, it seems also obvious to me that the answer does depend on the nature of the passwords. For instance, if I have 15 layers of encryption and each layer's password is merely one letter, it seems "trivial" to break the code.










share|improve this question


















  • 5





    If you were playing Hangman, which would be harder? Guessing the word one letter at a time, or guessing the entire word each time?

    – John Wu
    2 hours ago
















15















The comments in this question debate about the added security of multi-layered encryption. There seems to be some disagreement, and I thought a proper question would be helpful here.



So, to provide some common background, consider the following two scenarios:





  1. I apply symmetric encryption to a given file, as follows:



    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt


    to which I add the password "mydogisamazing"




  2. I apply four layers of encryption to a given file, as follows:



    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt
    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt.gpg
    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt.gpg.gpg
    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt.gpg.gpg.gpg


    where the passwords supply to each are, respectively: "amazing" "is" "dog" "my" (so, when I decrypt all the layers, I have entered "my" "dog" "is" "amazing")




Is option 2 more secure than option 1? Knowing almost nothing about encryption security, it seems to me it is, because anyone wanting to break in would have to run some password algorithm four times, whereas in option 1 the algorithm needs to be run 1 time only. What if different chiper-algo were used instead of the same?



All in all, it seems also obvious to me that the answer does depend on the nature of the passwords. For instance, if I have 15 layers of encryption and each layer's password is merely one letter, it seems "trivial" to break the code.










share|improve this question


















  • 5





    If you were playing Hangman, which would be harder? Guessing the word one letter at a time, or guessing the entire word each time?

    – John Wu
    2 hours ago














15












15








15








The comments in this question debate about the added security of multi-layered encryption. There seems to be some disagreement, and I thought a proper question would be helpful here.



So, to provide some common background, consider the following two scenarios:





  1. I apply symmetric encryption to a given file, as follows:



    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt


    to which I add the password "mydogisamazing"




  2. I apply four layers of encryption to a given file, as follows:



    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt
    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt.gpg
    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt.gpg.gpg
    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt.gpg.gpg.gpg


    where the passwords supply to each are, respectively: "amazing" "is" "dog" "my" (so, when I decrypt all the layers, I have entered "my" "dog" "is" "amazing")




Is option 2 more secure than option 1? Knowing almost nothing about encryption security, it seems to me it is, because anyone wanting to break in would have to run some password algorithm four times, whereas in option 1 the algorithm needs to be run 1 time only. What if different chiper-algo were used instead of the same?



All in all, it seems also obvious to me that the answer does depend on the nature of the passwords. For instance, if I have 15 layers of encryption and each layer's password is merely one letter, it seems "trivial" to break the code.










share|improve this question














The comments in this question debate about the added security of multi-layered encryption. There seems to be some disagreement, and I thought a proper question would be helpful here.



So, to provide some common background, consider the following two scenarios:





  1. I apply symmetric encryption to a given file, as follows:



    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt


    to which I add the password "mydogisamazing"




  2. I apply four layers of encryption to a given file, as follows:



    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt
    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt.gpg
    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt.gpg.gpg
    gpg --symmetric --cipher-algo AES256 my_file.txt.gpg.gpg.gpg


    where the passwords supply to each are, respectively: "amazing" "is" "dog" "my" (so, when I decrypt all the layers, I have entered "my" "dog" "is" "amazing")




Is option 2 more secure than option 1? Knowing almost nothing about encryption security, it seems to me it is, because anyone wanting to break in would have to run some password algorithm four times, whereas in option 1 the algorithm needs to be run 1 time only. What if different chiper-algo were used instead of the same?



All in all, it seems also obvious to me that the answer does depend on the nature of the passwords. For instance, if I have 15 layers of encryption and each layer's password is merely one letter, it seems "trivial" to break the code.







encryption gnupg






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 7 hours ago









luchonacholuchonacho

6451312




6451312








  • 5





    If you were playing Hangman, which would be harder? Guessing the word one letter at a time, or guessing the entire word each time?

    – John Wu
    2 hours ago














  • 5





    If you were playing Hangman, which would be harder? Guessing the word one letter at a time, or guessing the entire word each time?

    – John Wu
    2 hours ago








5




5





If you were playing Hangman, which would be harder? Guessing the word one letter at a time, or guessing the entire word each time?

– John Wu
2 hours ago





If you were playing Hangman, which would be harder? Guessing the word one letter at a time, or guessing the entire word each time?

– John Wu
2 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















27














Option 1 is more secure. In option 2, we can guess each word seperately. When we guess "amazing", we get confirmation that this word is correct and we can continue to the second word. In option 1, we have to guess all four words at the same time.



You may think that one GPG offers some security, and four GPGs offer four times that security, but it doesn't work like that. GPG offers near total security, and applying it more times does not improve security.



There are uses for applying encryption multiple times, for example when both signing and encrypting, or when encrypting for multiple parties. However, encrypting things several times does not in general makes them several times more secure.






share|improve this answer



















  • 3





    In addition, even if you assumed that correct intermediate decryptions are near indistinguishable from random until you have all passwords correct (making it harder to guess partial passwords), it's still weaker due to meet-in-the-middle attacks.

    – Natanael
    6 hours ago






  • 5





    @luchonacho the reason is that you only double the security AT MOST, it is NOT exponentially increased. Every additional random character in the password does however MORE than double the difficulty to crack the password.

    – Natanael
    5 hours ago








  • 1





    @luchonacho There's a scale you're just not comprehending - 4 vs 1 sounds good, but the 4 are vastly smaller than the 1. Assuming just lowercase alphabet, there are 26^8 possible 8-letter passwords. If I have to guess 4 2-letter passwords though, 26^2^4 is the ideal case - equivalent iff intermediate steps are indistinguishable from garbage. Meet-in-the-middle attacks make it so that even this "best case" of needing to guess the same number of passwords takes less time by storing intermediate values. Wikipedia has a better explanation.

    – Delioth
    4 hours ago






  • 1





    @Natanael Goodluck with the IV's of the middle layers for meet-in-the-middle-attack. Also, Weiner showed that double encryption is more secure than the single of course not by 2-times.

    – kelalaka
    4 hours ago






  • 1





    Are there encryption schemes where you cannot confirm if a guess was correct? I imagine being able to confirm a guess was correct when deciphering AES has to do with padding.

    – Vaelus
    1 hour ago





















9














This doesn't add security, but makes it easier to guess the passphrase one word at a time (N⁴ vs. N+N+N+N, where N is the symbol count of the word list). Even when you encrypt a file or a message to multiple recipients using PGP, the payload is encrypted only once using symmetric encryption, and then the key for that is encrypted separately for every recipient. This way every recipient has equal access to the payload without multiplying the message size.



What you suggest might be useful in two scenarios, but all the passphrases should be strong in themselves.




  • You have to send a file to someone using a symmetric encryption, but you don't have a channel for trustworthy key exchange. You could send the passphrase for one layer using email, for second layer using SMS and for third layer using mail. Any of these could be stolen, but it's way harder to steal them all.


  • You have information for a group of people you can't meet, but no-one should know it before the others. You send them all the encrypted file containing the information, but a different password to each. Now they need to be together to reveal the contents. That's a fair way to leave inheritance as a Bitcoin wallet!







share|improve this answer





















  • 6





    Worth noting: The split-key group scenario is more versatilely accomplished with Shamir's Secret Sharing.

    – Michael
    4 hours ago





















6














Another perspective to what the others said (that guessing single words 4 times is much less expensive than guessing a combination of 4 words at once):



In cryptography, there is the concept of having completely open algorithms, and completely closed secrets. As long as the secret stays (sic!) secret, it does not matter whether the attacker knows anything at all about the algorithm. This is the opposite of "security by obscurity", and it is well. It means that you can put up the algorithm to the scrutiny of the whole world (quite literally, in a popular scheme like AES) without compromising anything.



The algorithm "just" needs to be uncrackable; you need to convince yourself that there is neither an algorithmic or a brute force way to crack it. If you can come to that conclusion, then you're finished, and only need to care about your secret. You and me probably cannot analyze AES to this extent, but we can decide that having it an open/public algorithm with great exposure to many presumably "good" cryptanalysts makes it safe enough for us.



So. Assume you have such an algorithm. By definition, once you have a safe password, it is 100%, perfectly safe (until someone discovers a crack in the algorithm or creates a computer fast enough - both of which does, of course happen regularly, e.g., MD5).



Anything you do with the algorithm afterwards would need very thorough inspection by a large community of cryptologists. Your proposed "repeat AES 4 times" algorithm is a completely new thing. Throw it to the community (like you did here), and people immediately find weaknesses. That's why you don't (as a layman, or as a lone programmer in some company) fool around with the algorithm, and don't ever bother with security by obscurity.



In this particular case: if applying AES 4 times would increase security, then AES would already do that. This would be such a trivial change compared to the complexity of the field.






share|improve this answer































    5














    Imagine a Hollywood film where they're cracking a password or a security code, with all the spinning digits on a fancy UI, and they have elite hackers who crack one digit of the code at a time, and the good guys have to work to blow up the hackers' computer or something before they crack that last digit. Of course, in real life it isn't like that — for a reasonably secure system, you basically either know you've got the right password, or you know you've not got the right password — there's no way to see if a password is in any way "close".



    What you've suggested is making your security system work like the ones in Hollywood. An attacker would be able to run a trivial dictionary attack on your encryption, and know that they've successfully decrypted the first layer immediately. They could then simply repeat this four times to recover the file. By comparison, running a trivial dictionary attack wouldn't discover your "mydogisamazing" password, and there would be absolutely no indication when the word "my" came up in their attack that this was "close" to the final password.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    Muzer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.
















    • 3





      Collecting IVs from a WEP protected wireless network is a real life situation that works similarly to these Hollywood movie scenes, though. Likewise, it has nothing to do with password strength, but looks cool on the screen.

      – Esa Jokinen
      3 hours ago











    • @EsaJokinen agreed, but hence "for a reasonably secure system" - wired equivalent privacy my arse!

      – Muzer
      2 hours ago











    • It's equivalent to zero privacy.

      – Esa Jokinen
      2 hours ago






    • 1





      running a trivial dictionary attack wouldn't discover your "mydogisamazing" password Well, according to haveibeenpwned.com, "mydogisamazing" appeared three times in password breaks already ...

      – Dubu
      2 hours ago













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    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

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    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    27














    Option 1 is more secure. In option 2, we can guess each word seperately. When we guess "amazing", we get confirmation that this word is correct and we can continue to the second word. In option 1, we have to guess all four words at the same time.



    You may think that one GPG offers some security, and four GPGs offer four times that security, but it doesn't work like that. GPG offers near total security, and applying it more times does not improve security.



    There are uses for applying encryption multiple times, for example when both signing and encrypting, or when encrypting for multiple parties. However, encrypting things several times does not in general makes them several times more secure.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 3





      In addition, even if you assumed that correct intermediate decryptions are near indistinguishable from random until you have all passwords correct (making it harder to guess partial passwords), it's still weaker due to meet-in-the-middle attacks.

      – Natanael
      6 hours ago






    • 5





      @luchonacho the reason is that you only double the security AT MOST, it is NOT exponentially increased. Every additional random character in the password does however MORE than double the difficulty to crack the password.

      – Natanael
      5 hours ago








    • 1





      @luchonacho There's a scale you're just not comprehending - 4 vs 1 sounds good, but the 4 are vastly smaller than the 1. Assuming just lowercase alphabet, there are 26^8 possible 8-letter passwords. If I have to guess 4 2-letter passwords though, 26^2^4 is the ideal case - equivalent iff intermediate steps are indistinguishable from garbage. Meet-in-the-middle attacks make it so that even this "best case" of needing to guess the same number of passwords takes less time by storing intermediate values. Wikipedia has a better explanation.

      – Delioth
      4 hours ago






    • 1





      @Natanael Goodluck with the IV's of the middle layers for meet-in-the-middle-attack. Also, Weiner showed that double encryption is more secure than the single of course not by 2-times.

      – kelalaka
      4 hours ago






    • 1





      Are there encryption schemes where you cannot confirm if a guess was correct? I imagine being able to confirm a guess was correct when deciphering AES has to do with padding.

      – Vaelus
      1 hour ago


















    27














    Option 1 is more secure. In option 2, we can guess each word seperately. When we guess "amazing", we get confirmation that this word is correct and we can continue to the second word. In option 1, we have to guess all four words at the same time.



    You may think that one GPG offers some security, and four GPGs offer four times that security, but it doesn't work like that. GPG offers near total security, and applying it more times does not improve security.



    There are uses for applying encryption multiple times, for example when both signing and encrypting, or when encrypting for multiple parties. However, encrypting things several times does not in general makes them several times more secure.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 3





      In addition, even if you assumed that correct intermediate decryptions are near indistinguishable from random until you have all passwords correct (making it harder to guess partial passwords), it's still weaker due to meet-in-the-middle attacks.

      – Natanael
      6 hours ago






    • 5





      @luchonacho the reason is that you only double the security AT MOST, it is NOT exponentially increased. Every additional random character in the password does however MORE than double the difficulty to crack the password.

      – Natanael
      5 hours ago








    • 1





      @luchonacho There's a scale you're just not comprehending - 4 vs 1 sounds good, but the 4 are vastly smaller than the 1. Assuming just lowercase alphabet, there are 26^8 possible 8-letter passwords. If I have to guess 4 2-letter passwords though, 26^2^4 is the ideal case - equivalent iff intermediate steps are indistinguishable from garbage. Meet-in-the-middle attacks make it so that even this "best case" of needing to guess the same number of passwords takes less time by storing intermediate values. Wikipedia has a better explanation.

      – Delioth
      4 hours ago






    • 1





      @Natanael Goodluck with the IV's of the middle layers for meet-in-the-middle-attack. Also, Weiner showed that double encryption is more secure than the single of course not by 2-times.

      – kelalaka
      4 hours ago






    • 1





      Are there encryption schemes where you cannot confirm if a guess was correct? I imagine being able to confirm a guess was correct when deciphering AES has to do with padding.

      – Vaelus
      1 hour ago
















    27












    27








    27







    Option 1 is more secure. In option 2, we can guess each word seperately. When we guess "amazing", we get confirmation that this word is correct and we can continue to the second word. In option 1, we have to guess all four words at the same time.



    You may think that one GPG offers some security, and four GPGs offer four times that security, but it doesn't work like that. GPG offers near total security, and applying it more times does not improve security.



    There are uses for applying encryption multiple times, for example when both signing and encrypting, or when encrypting for multiple parties. However, encrypting things several times does not in general makes them several times more secure.






    share|improve this answer













    Option 1 is more secure. In option 2, we can guess each word seperately. When we guess "amazing", we get confirmation that this word is correct and we can continue to the second word. In option 1, we have to guess all four words at the same time.



    You may think that one GPG offers some security, and four GPGs offer four times that security, but it doesn't work like that. GPG offers near total security, and applying it more times does not improve security.



    There are uses for applying encryption multiple times, for example when both signing and encrypting, or when encrypting for multiple parties. However, encrypting things several times does not in general makes them several times more secure.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 6 hours ago









    SjoerdSjoerd

    18.8k84361




    18.8k84361








    • 3





      In addition, even if you assumed that correct intermediate decryptions are near indistinguishable from random until you have all passwords correct (making it harder to guess partial passwords), it's still weaker due to meet-in-the-middle attacks.

      – Natanael
      6 hours ago






    • 5





      @luchonacho the reason is that you only double the security AT MOST, it is NOT exponentially increased. Every additional random character in the password does however MORE than double the difficulty to crack the password.

      – Natanael
      5 hours ago








    • 1





      @luchonacho There's a scale you're just not comprehending - 4 vs 1 sounds good, but the 4 are vastly smaller than the 1. Assuming just lowercase alphabet, there are 26^8 possible 8-letter passwords. If I have to guess 4 2-letter passwords though, 26^2^4 is the ideal case - equivalent iff intermediate steps are indistinguishable from garbage. Meet-in-the-middle attacks make it so that even this "best case" of needing to guess the same number of passwords takes less time by storing intermediate values. Wikipedia has a better explanation.

      – Delioth
      4 hours ago






    • 1





      @Natanael Goodluck with the IV's of the middle layers for meet-in-the-middle-attack. Also, Weiner showed that double encryption is more secure than the single of course not by 2-times.

      – kelalaka
      4 hours ago






    • 1





      Are there encryption schemes where you cannot confirm if a guess was correct? I imagine being able to confirm a guess was correct when deciphering AES has to do with padding.

      – Vaelus
      1 hour ago
















    • 3





      In addition, even if you assumed that correct intermediate decryptions are near indistinguishable from random until you have all passwords correct (making it harder to guess partial passwords), it's still weaker due to meet-in-the-middle attacks.

      – Natanael
      6 hours ago






    • 5





      @luchonacho the reason is that you only double the security AT MOST, it is NOT exponentially increased. Every additional random character in the password does however MORE than double the difficulty to crack the password.

      – Natanael
      5 hours ago








    • 1





      @luchonacho There's a scale you're just not comprehending - 4 vs 1 sounds good, but the 4 are vastly smaller than the 1. Assuming just lowercase alphabet, there are 26^8 possible 8-letter passwords. If I have to guess 4 2-letter passwords though, 26^2^4 is the ideal case - equivalent iff intermediate steps are indistinguishable from garbage. Meet-in-the-middle attacks make it so that even this "best case" of needing to guess the same number of passwords takes less time by storing intermediate values. Wikipedia has a better explanation.

      – Delioth
      4 hours ago






    • 1





      @Natanael Goodluck with the IV's of the middle layers for meet-in-the-middle-attack. Also, Weiner showed that double encryption is more secure than the single of course not by 2-times.

      – kelalaka
      4 hours ago






    • 1





      Are there encryption schemes where you cannot confirm if a guess was correct? I imagine being able to confirm a guess was correct when deciphering AES has to do with padding.

      – Vaelus
      1 hour ago










    3




    3





    In addition, even if you assumed that correct intermediate decryptions are near indistinguishable from random until you have all passwords correct (making it harder to guess partial passwords), it's still weaker due to meet-in-the-middle attacks.

    – Natanael
    6 hours ago





    In addition, even if you assumed that correct intermediate decryptions are near indistinguishable from random until you have all passwords correct (making it harder to guess partial passwords), it's still weaker due to meet-in-the-middle attacks.

    – Natanael
    6 hours ago




    5




    5





    @luchonacho the reason is that you only double the security AT MOST, it is NOT exponentially increased. Every additional random character in the password does however MORE than double the difficulty to crack the password.

    – Natanael
    5 hours ago







    @luchonacho the reason is that you only double the security AT MOST, it is NOT exponentially increased. Every additional random character in the password does however MORE than double the difficulty to crack the password.

    – Natanael
    5 hours ago






    1




    1





    @luchonacho There's a scale you're just not comprehending - 4 vs 1 sounds good, but the 4 are vastly smaller than the 1. Assuming just lowercase alphabet, there are 26^8 possible 8-letter passwords. If I have to guess 4 2-letter passwords though, 26^2^4 is the ideal case - equivalent iff intermediate steps are indistinguishable from garbage. Meet-in-the-middle attacks make it so that even this "best case" of needing to guess the same number of passwords takes less time by storing intermediate values. Wikipedia has a better explanation.

    – Delioth
    4 hours ago





    @luchonacho There's a scale you're just not comprehending - 4 vs 1 sounds good, but the 4 are vastly smaller than the 1. Assuming just lowercase alphabet, there are 26^8 possible 8-letter passwords. If I have to guess 4 2-letter passwords though, 26^2^4 is the ideal case - equivalent iff intermediate steps are indistinguishable from garbage. Meet-in-the-middle attacks make it so that even this "best case" of needing to guess the same number of passwords takes less time by storing intermediate values. Wikipedia has a better explanation.

    – Delioth
    4 hours ago




    1




    1





    @Natanael Goodluck with the IV's of the middle layers for meet-in-the-middle-attack. Also, Weiner showed that double encryption is more secure than the single of course not by 2-times.

    – kelalaka
    4 hours ago





    @Natanael Goodluck with the IV's of the middle layers for meet-in-the-middle-attack. Also, Weiner showed that double encryption is more secure than the single of course not by 2-times.

    – kelalaka
    4 hours ago




    1




    1





    Are there encryption schemes where you cannot confirm if a guess was correct? I imagine being able to confirm a guess was correct when deciphering AES has to do with padding.

    – Vaelus
    1 hour ago







    Are there encryption schemes where you cannot confirm if a guess was correct? I imagine being able to confirm a guess was correct when deciphering AES has to do with padding.

    – Vaelus
    1 hour ago















    9














    This doesn't add security, but makes it easier to guess the passphrase one word at a time (N⁴ vs. N+N+N+N, where N is the symbol count of the word list). Even when you encrypt a file or a message to multiple recipients using PGP, the payload is encrypted only once using symmetric encryption, and then the key for that is encrypted separately for every recipient. This way every recipient has equal access to the payload without multiplying the message size.



    What you suggest might be useful in two scenarios, but all the passphrases should be strong in themselves.




    • You have to send a file to someone using a symmetric encryption, but you don't have a channel for trustworthy key exchange. You could send the passphrase for one layer using email, for second layer using SMS and for third layer using mail. Any of these could be stolen, but it's way harder to steal them all.


    • You have information for a group of people you can't meet, but no-one should know it before the others. You send them all the encrypted file containing the information, but a different password to each. Now they need to be together to reveal the contents. That's a fair way to leave inheritance as a Bitcoin wallet!







    share|improve this answer





















    • 6





      Worth noting: The split-key group scenario is more versatilely accomplished with Shamir's Secret Sharing.

      – Michael
      4 hours ago


















    9














    This doesn't add security, but makes it easier to guess the passphrase one word at a time (N⁴ vs. N+N+N+N, where N is the symbol count of the word list). Even when you encrypt a file or a message to multiple recipients using PGP, the payload is encrypted only once using symmetric encryption, and then the key for that is encrypted separately for every recipient. This way every recipient has equal access to the payload without multiplying the message size.



    What you suggest might be useful in two scenarios, but all the passphrases should be strong in themselves.




    • You have to send a file to someone using a symmetric encryption, but you don't have a channel for trustworthy key exchange. You could send the passphrase for one layer using email, for second layer using SMS and for third layer using mail. Any of these could be stolen, but it's way harder to steal them all.


    • You have information for a group of people you can't meet, but no-one should know it before the others. You send them all the encrypted file containing the information, but a different password to each. Now they need to be together to reveal the contents. That's a fair way to leave inheritance as a Bitcoin wallet!







    share|improve this answer





















    • 6





      Worth noting: The split-key group scenario is more versatilely accomplished with Shamir's Secret Sharing.

      – Michael
      4 hours ago
















    9












    9








    9







    This doesn't add security, but makes it easier to guess the passphrase one word at a time (N⁴ vs. N+N+N+N, where N is the symbol count of the word list). Even when you encrypt a file or a message to multiple recipients using PGP, the payload is encrypted only once using symmetric encryption, and then the key for that is encrypted separately for every recipient. This way every recipient has equal access to the payload without multiplying the message size.



    What you suggest might be useful in two scenarios, but all the passphrases should be strong in themselves.




    • You have to send a file to someone using a symmetric encryption, but you don't have a channel for trustworthy key exchange. You could send the passphrase for one layer using email, for second layer using SMS and for third layer using mail. Any of these could be stolen, but it's way harder to steal them all.


    • You have information for a group of people you can't meet, but no-one should know it before the others. You send them all the encrypted file containing the information, but a different password to each. Now they need to be together to reveal the contents. That's a fair way to leave inheritance as a Bitcoin wallet!







    share|improve this answer















    This doesn't add security, but makes it easier to guess the passphrase one word at a time (N⁴ vs. N+N+N+N, where N is the symbol count of the word list). Even when you encrypt a file or a message to multiple recipients using PGP, the payload is encrypted only once using symmetric encryption, and then the key for that is encrypted separately for every recipient. This way every recipient has equal access to the payload without multiplying the message size.



    What you suggest might be useful in two scenarios, but all the passphrases should be strong in themselves.




    • You have to send a file to someone using a symmetric encryption, but you don't have a channel for trustworthy key exchange. You could send the passphrase for one layer using email, for second layer using SMS and for third layer using mail. Any of these could be stolen, but it's way harder to steal them all.


    • You have information for a group of people you can't meet, but no-one should know it before the others. You send them all the encrypted file containing the information, but a different password to each. Now they need to be together to reveal the contents. That's a fair way to leave inheritance as a Bitcoin wallet!








    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 5 hours ago

























    answered 6 hours ago









    Esa JokinenEsa Jokinen

    1,53149




    1,53149








    • 6





      Worth noting: The split-key group scenario is more versatilely accomplished with Shamir's Secret Sharing.

      – Michael
      4 hours ago
















    • 6





      Worth noting: The split-key group scenario is more versatilely accomplished with Shamir's Secret Sharing.

      – Michael
      4 hours ago










    6




    6





    Worth noting: The split-key group scenario is more versatilely accomplished with Shamir's Secret Sharing.

    – Michael
    4 hours ago







    Worth noting: The split-key group scenario is more versatilely accomplished with Shamir's Secret Sharing.

    – Michael
    4 hours ago













    6














    Another perspective to what the others said (that guessing single words 4 times is much less expensive than guessing a combination of 4 words at once):



    In cryptography, there is the concept of having completely open algorithms, and completely closed secrets. As long as the secret stays (sic!) secret, it does not matter whether the attacker knows anything at all about the algorithm. This is the opposite of "security by obscurity", and it is well. It means that you can put up the algorithm to the scrutiny of the whole world (quite literally, in a popular scheme like AES) without compromising anything.



    The algorithm "just" needs to be uncrackable; you need to convince yourself that there is neither an algorithmic or a brute force way to crack it. If you can come to that conclusion, then you're finished, and only need to care about your secret. You and me probably cannot analyze AES to this extent, but we can decide that having it an open/public algorithm with great exposure to many presumably "good" cryptanalysts makes it safe enough for us.



    So. Assume you have such an algorithm. By definition, once you have a safe password, it is 100%, perfectly safe (until someone discovers a crack in the algorithm or creates a computer fast enough - both of which does, of course happen regularly, e.g., MD5).



    Anything you do with the algorithm afterwards would need very thorough inspection by a large community of cryptologists. Your proposed "repeat AES 4 times" algorithm is a completely new thing. Throw it to the community (like you did here), and people immediately find weaknesses. That's why you don't (as a layman, or as a lone programmer in some company) fool around with the algorithm, and don't ever bother with security by obscurity.



    In this particular case: if applying AES 4 times would increase security, then AES would already do that. This would be such a trivial change compared to the complexity of the field.






    share|improve this answer




























      6














      Another perspective to what the others said (that guessing single words 4 times is much less expensive than guessing a combination of 4 words at once):



      In cryptography, there is the concept of having completely open algorithms, and completely closed secrets. As long as the secret stays (sic!) secret, it does not matter whether the attacker knows anything at all about the algorithm. This is the opposite of "security by obscurity", and it is well. It means that you can put up the algorithm to the scrutiny of the whole world (quite literally, in a popular scheme like AES) without compromising anything.



      The algorithm "just" needs to be uncrackable; you need to convince yourself that there is neither an algorithmic or a brute force way to crack it. If you can come to that conclusion, then you're finished, and only need to care about your secret. You and me probably cannot analyze AES to this extent, but we can decide that having it an open/public algorithm with great exposure to many presumably "good" cryptanalysts makes it safe enough for us.



      So. Assume you have such an algorithm. By definition, once you have a safe password, it is 100%, perfectly safe (until someone discovers a crack in the algorithm or creates a computer fast enough - both of which does, of course happen regularly, e.g., MD5).



      Anything you do with the algorithm afterwards would need very thorough inspection by a large community of cryptologists. Your proposed "repeat AES 4 times" algorithm is a completely new thing. Throw it to the community (like you did here), and people immediately find weaknesses. That's why you don't (as a layman, or as a lone programmer in some company) fool around with the algorithm, and don't ever bother with security by obscurity.



      In this particular case: if applying AES 4 times would increase security, then AES would already do that. This would be such a trivial change compared to the complexity of the field.






      share|improve this answer


























        6












        6








        6







        Another perspective to what the others said (that guessing single words 4 times is much less expensive than guessing a combination of 4 words at once):



        In cryptography, there is the concept of having completely open algorithms, and completely closed secrets. As long as the secret stays (sic!) secret, it does not matter whether the attacker knows anything at all about the algorithm. This is the opposite of "security by obscurity", and it is well. It means that you can put up the algorithm to the scrutiny of the whole world (quite literally, in a popular scheme like AES) without compromising anything.



        The algorithm "just" needs to be uncrackable; you need to convince yourself that there is neither an algorithmic or a brute force way to crack it. If you can come to that conclusion, then you're finished, and only need to care about your secret. You and me probably cannot analyze AES to this extent, but we can decide that having it an open/public algorithm with great exposure to many presumably "good" cryptanalysts makes it safe enough for us.



        So. Assume you have such an algorithm. By definition, once you have a safe password, it is 100%, perfectly safe (until someone discovers a crack in the algorithm or creates a computer fast enough - both of which does, of course happen regularly, e.g., MD5).



        Anything you do with the algorithm afterwards would need very thorough inspection by a large community of cryptologists. Your proposed "repeat AES 4 times" algorithm is a completely new thing. Throw it to the community (like you did here), and people immediately find weaknesses. That's why you don't (as a layman, or as a lone programmer in some company) fool around with the algorithm, and don't ever bother with security by obscurity.



        In this particular case: if applying AES 4 times would increase security, then AES would already do that. This would be such a trivial change compared to the complexity of the field.






        share|improve this answer













        Another perspective to what the others said (that guessing single words 4 times is much less expensive than guessing a combination of 4 words at once):



        In cryptography, there is the concept of having completely open algorithms, and completely closed secrets. As long as the secret stays (sic!) secret, it does not matter whether the attacker knows anything at all about the algorithm. This is the opposite of "security by obscurity", and it is well. It means that you can put up the algorithm to the scrutiny of the whole world (quite literally, in a popular scheme like AES) without compromising anything.



        The algorithm "just" needs to be uncrackable; you need to convince yourself that there is neither an algorithmic or a brute force way to crack it. If you can come to that conclusion, then you're finished, and only need to care about your secret. You and me probably cannot analyze AES to this extent, but we can decide that having it an open/public algorithm with great exposure to many presumably "good" cryptanalysts makes it safe enough for us.



        So. Assume you have such an algorithm. By definition, once you have a safe password, it is 100%, perfectly safe (until someone discovers a crack in the algorithm or creates a computer fast enough - both of which does, of course happen regularly, e.g., MD5).



        Anything you do with the algorithm afterwards would need very thorough inspection by a large community of cryptologists. Your proposed "repeat AES 4 times" algorithm is a completely new thing. Throw it to the community (like you did here), and people immediately find weaknesses. That's why you don't (as a layman, or as a lone programmer in some company) fool around with the algorithm, and don't ever bother with security by obscurity.



        In this particular case: if applying AES 4 times would increase security, then AES would already do that. This would be such a trivial change compared to the complexity of the field.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 3 hours ago









        AnoEAnoE

        2,1121311




        2,1121311























            5














            Imagine a Hollywood film where they're cracking a password or a security code, with all the spinning digits on a fancy UI, and they have elite hackers who crack one digit of the code at a time, and the good guys have to work to blow up the hackers' computer or something before they crack that last digit. Of course, in real life it isn't like that — for a reasonably secure system, you basically either know you've got the right password, or you know you've not got the right password — there's no way to see if a password is in any way "close".



            What you've suggested is making your security system work like the ones in Hollywood. An attacker would be able to run a trivial dictionary attack on your encryption, and know that they've successfully decrypted the first layer immediately. They could then simply repeat this four times to recover the file. By comparison, running a trivial dictionary attack wouldn't discover your "mydogisamazing" password, and there would be absolutely no indication when the word "my" came up in their attack that this was "close" to the final password.






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Muzer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.
















            • 3





              Collecting IVs from a WEP protected wireless network is a real life situation that works similarly to these Hollywood movie scenes, though. Likewise, it has nothing to do with password strength, but looks cool on the screen.

              – Esa Jokinen
              3 hours ago











            • @EsaJokinen agreed, but hence "for a reasonably secure system" - wired equivalent privacy my arse!

              – Muzer
              2 hours ago











            • It's equivalent to zero privacy.

              – Esa Jokinen
              2 hours ago






            • 1





              running a trivial dictionary attack wouldn't discover your "mydogisamazing" password Well, according to haveibeenpwned.com, "mydogisamazing" appeared three times in password breaks already ...

              – Dubu
              2 hours ago


















            5














            Imagine a Hollywood film where they're cracking a password or a security code, with all the spinning digits on a fancy UI, and they have elite hackers who crack one digit of the code at a time, and the good guys have to work to blow up the hackers' computer or something before they crack that last digit. Of course, in real life it isn't like that — for a reasonably secure system, you basically either know you've got the right password, or you know you've not got the right password — there's no way to see if a password is in any way "close".



            What you've suggested is making your security system work like the ones in Hollywood. An attacker would be able to run a trivial dictionary attack on your encryption, and know that they've successfully decrypted the first layer immediately. They could then simply repeat this four times to recover the file. By comparison, running a trivial dictionary attack wouldn't discover your "mydogisamazing" password, and there would be absolutely no indication when the word "my" came up in their attack that this was "close" to the final password.






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Muzer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.
















            • 3





              Collecting IVs from a WEP protected wireless network is a real life situation that works similarly to these Hollywood movie scenes, though. Likewise, it has nothing to do with password strength, but looks cool on the screen.

              – Esa Jokinen
              3 hours ago











            • @EsaJokinen agreed, but hence "for a reasonably secure system" - wired equivalent privacy my arse!

              – Muzer
              2 hours ago











            • It's equivalent to zero privacy.

              – Esa Jokinen
              2 hours ago






            • 1





              running a trivial dictionary attack wouldn't discover your "mydogisamazing" password Well, according to haveibeenpwned.com, "mydogisamazing" appeared three times in password breaks already ...

              – Dubu
              2 hours ago
















            5












            5








            5







            Imagine a Hollywood film where they're cracking a password or a security code, with all the spinning digits on a fancy UI, and they have elite hackers who crack one digit of the code at a time, and the good guys have to work to blow up the hackers' computer or something before they crack that last digit. Of course, in real life it isn't like that — for a reasonably secure system, you basically either know you've got the right password, or you know you've not got the right password — there's no way to see if a password is in any way "close".



            What you've suggested is making your security system work like the ones in Hollywood. An attacker would be able to run a trivial dictionary attack on your encryption, and know that they've successfully decrypted the first layer immediately. They could then simply repeat this four times to recover the file. By comparison, running a trivial dictionary attack wouldn't discover your "mydogisamazing" password, and there would be absolutely no indication when the word "my" came up in their attack that this was "close" to the final password.






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Muzer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.










            Imagine a Hollywood film where they're cracking a password or a security code, with all the spinning digits on a fancy UI, and they have elite hackers who crack one digit of the code at a time, and the good guys have to work to blow up the hackers' computer or something before they crack that last digit. Of course, in real life it isn't like that — for a reasonably secure system, you basically either know you've got the right password, or you know you've not got the right password — there's no way to see if a password is in any way "close".



            What you've suggested is making your security system work like the ones in Hollywood. An attacker would be able to run a trivial dictionary attack on your encryption, and know that they've successfully decrypted the first layer immediately. They could then simply repeat this four times to recover the file. By comparison, running a trivial dictionary attack wouldn't discover your "mydogisamazing" password, and there would be absolutely no indication when the word "my" came up in their attack that this was "close" to the final password.







            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Muzer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer






            New contributor




            Muzer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            answered 3 hours ago









            MuzerMuzer

            1512




            1512




            New contributor




            Muzer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.





            New contributor





            Muzer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.






            Muzer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.








            • 3





              Collecting IVs from a WEP protected wireless network is a real life situation that works similarly to these Hollywood movie scenes, though. Likewise, it has nothing to do with password strength, but looks cool on the screen.

              – Esa Jokinen
              3 hours ago











            • @EsaJokinen agreed, but hence "for a reasonably secure system" - wired equivalent privacy my arse!

              – Muzer
              2 hours ago











            • It's equivalent to zero privacy.

              – Esa Jokinen
              2 hours ago






            • 1





              running a trivial dictionary attack wouldn't discover your "mydogisamazing" password Well, according to haveibeenpwned.com, "mydogisamazing" appeared three times in password breaks already ...

              – Dubu
              2 hours ago
















            • 3





              Collecting IVs from a WEP protected wireless network is a real life situation that works similarly to these Hollywood movie scenes, though. Likewise, it has nothing to do with password strength, but looks cool on the screen.

              – Esa Jokinen
              3 hours ago











            • @EsaJokinen agreed, but hence "for a reasonably secure system" - wired equivalent privacy my arse!

              – Muzer
              2 hours ago











            • It's equivalent to zero privacy.

              – Esa Jokinen
              2 hours ago






            • 1





              running a trivial dictionary attack wouldn't discover your "mydogisamazing" password Well, according to haveibeenpwned.com, "mydogisamazing" appeared three times in password breaks already ...

              – Dubu
              2 hours ago










            3




            3





            Collecting IVs from a WEP protected wireless network is a real life situation that works similarly to these Hollywood movie scenes, though. Likewise, it has nothing to do with password strength, but looks cool on the screen.

            – Esa Jokinen
            3 hours ago





            Collecting IVs from a WEP protected wireless network is a real life situation that works similarly to these Hollywood movie scenes, though. Likewise, it has nothing to do with password strength, but looks cool on the screen.

            – Esa Jokinen
            3 hours ago













            @EsaJokinen agreed, but hence "for a reasonably secure system" - wired equivalent privacy my arse!

            – Muzer
            2 hours ago





            @EsaJokinen agreed, but hence "for a reasonably secure system" - wired equivalent privacy my arse!

            – Muzer
            2 hours ago













            It's equivalent to zero privacy.

            – Esa Jokinen
            2 hours ago





            It's equivalent to zero privacy.

            – Esa Jokinen
            2 hours ago




            1




            1





            running a trivial dictionary attack wouldn't discover your "mydogisamazing" password Well, according to haveibeenpwned.com, "mydogisamazing" appeared three times in password breaks already ...

            – Dubu
            2 hours ago







            running a trivial dictionary attack wouldn't discover your "mydogisamazing" password Well, according to haveibeenpwned.com, "mydogisamazing" appeared three times in password breaks already ...

            – Dubu
            2 hours ago




















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