Why do we interpret the accelerated expansion of the universe as the proof for the existence of dark...
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Why do we interpret the accelerated expansion of the universe as the proof for the existence of dark energy?
What experiments, other than Hubble Expansion, support the Dark Energy theory?What allows us to infer the existence of dark energy?Is antigravity (i.e. repulsive gravity) the source of accelerating expansion (dark energy)?Why does dark energy produce positive space-time curvature?What are the alternative theories of dark energy? ($w neq -1$)G4v Gravity Theory: Why does this get rid of Dark Energy?What does the Friedmann Equation imply for the cosmological constant?How can the expansion of the universe accelerate?Does the cosmological constant represent anti-gravity?Why does the current age of the universe increase when dark energy is included? (open universe)
$begingroup$
My question could be summarised in:
- Why do we interpret the accelerated expansion of the universe as the proof for the existence of dark energy?
This boils down to putting the cosmological constant on the left hand side or the right hand side of the Einstein equation.
If I put it in the left hand side I would have a theory of gravity that explains both the "small scales" success of general relativity and the big scales expansion of the universe, without adding an element like dark energy. So why do we keep saying that there is this dark energy and we try to identify it as the vacuum energy while we could more elegantly (in my opinion) use a theory of gravity with a cosmological constant and explain all observations?
general-relativity cosmology space-expansion dark-energy cosmological-constant
$endgroup$
|
show 10 more comments
$begingroup$
My question could be summarised in:
- Why do we interpret the accelerated expansion of the universe as the proof for the existence of dark energy?
This boils down to putting the cosmological constant on the left hand side or the right hand side of the Einstein equation.
If I put it in the left hand side I would have a theory of gravity that explains both the "small scales" success of general relativity and the big scales expansion of the universe, without adding an element like dark energy. So why do we keep saying that there is this dark energy and we try to identify it as the vacuum energy while we could more elegantly (in my opinion) use a theory of gravity with a cosmological constant and explain all observations?
general-relativity cosmology space-expansion dark-energy cosmological-constant
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The way your question is worded currently makes it seem like you are proposing that we should just accept the cosmological constant without actually understanding why there even is a cosmological constant.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Aaron Stevens Yes, exactly like we accept the Lagrangian of the standard model out of the many Lagrangians you could build in QFT. Or like we accepted the inverse square law for charges in electrostatics. What's wrong with that?
$endgroup$
– Run like hell
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
So would your question be better described as "Is dark energy the reason for the cosmological constant?"
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I understand accepting mathematical models of the universe based on experiments, but it seems like to me you are using a mathematical manipulation as the basis of how you think the universe works. Although maybe I just don't fully understand what you are thinking here.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
My previous comment suggest me to ask a new question: Could the cosmological constant be interpreted as a mass term in EFE's equation, like the KG term $m^2 , phi$ ? I never saw this interpretation elsewhere before. If this interpretation is valid, $Lambda$ could be associated to a kind of spacetime inertia, defining a priviligied scale (like $m$ in the KG equation).
$endgroup$
– Cham
3 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
$begingroup$
My question could be summarised in:
- Why do we interpret the accelerated expansion of the universe as the proof for the existence of dark energy?
This boils down to putting the cosmological constant on the left hand side or the right hand side of the Einstein equation.
If I put it in the left hand side I would have a theory of gravity that explains both the "small scales" success of general relativity and the big scales expansion of the universe, without adding an element like dark energy. So why do we keep saying that there is this dark energy and we try to identify it as the vacuum energy while we could more elegantly (in my opinion) use a theory of gravity with a cosmological constant and explain all observations?
general-relativity cosmology space-expansion dark-energy cosmological-constant
$endgroup$
My question could be summarised in:
- Why do we interpret the accelerated expansion of the universe as the proof for the existence of dark energy?
This boils down to putting the cosmological constant on the left hand side or the right hand side of the Einstein equation.
If I put it in the left hand side I would have a theory of gravity that explains both the "small scales" success of general relativity and the big scales expansion of the universe, without adding an element like dark energy. So why do we keep saying that there is this dark energy and we try to identify it as the vacuum energy while we could more elegantly (in my opinion) use a theory of gravity with a cosmological constant and explain all observations?
general-relativity cosmology space-expansion dark-energy cosmological-constant
general-relativity cosmology space-expansion dark-energy cosmological-constant
edited 3 hours ago
knzhou
44.2k11121212
44.2k11121212
asked 4 hours ago
Run like hellRun like hell
1,408725
1,408725
$begingroup$
The way your question is worded currently makes it seem like you are proposing that we should just accept the cosmological constant without actually understanding why there even is a cosmological constant.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Aaron Stevens Yes, exactly like we accept the Lagrangian of the standard model out of the many Lagrangians you could build in QFT. Or like we accepted the inverse square law for charges in electrostatics. What's wrong with that?
$endgroup$
– Run like hell
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
So would your question be better described as "Is dark energy the reason for the cosmological constant?"
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I understand accepting mathematical models of the universe based on experiments, but it seems like to me you are using a mathematical manipulation as the basis of how you think the universe works. Although maybe I just don't fully understand what you are thinking here.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
My previous comment suggest me to ask a new question: Could the cosmological constant be interpreted as a mass term in EFE's equation, like the KG term $m^2 , phi$ ? I never saw this interpretation elsewhere before. If this interpretation is valid, $Lambda$ could be associated to a kind of spacetime inertia, defining a priviligied scale (like $m$ in the KG equation).
$endgroup$
– Cham
3 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
$begingroup$
The way your question is worded currently makes it seem like you are proposing that we should just accept the cosmological constant without actually understanding why there even is a cosmological constant.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Aaron Stevens Yes, exactly like we accept the Lagrangian of the standard model out of the many Lagrangians you could build in QFT. Or like we accepted the inverse square law for charges in electrostatics. What's wrong with that?
$endgroup$
– Run like hell
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
So would your question be better described as "Is dark energy the reason for the cosmological constant?"
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I understand accepting mathematical models of the universe based on experiments, but it seems like to me you are using a mathematical manipulation as the basis of how you think the universe works. Although maybe I just don't fully understand what you are thinking here.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
My previous comment suggest me to ask a new question: Could the cosmological constant be interpreted as a mass term in EFE's equation, like the KG term $m^2 , phi$ ? I never saw this interpretation elsewhere before. If this interpretation is valid, $Lambda$ could be associated to a kind of spacetime inertia, defining a priviligied scale (like $m$ in the KG equation).
$endgroup$
– Cham
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
The way your question is worded currently makes it seem like you are proposing that we should just accept the cosmological constant without actually understanding why there even is a cosmological constant.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
The way your question is worded currently makes it seem like you are proposing that we should just accept the cosmological constant without actually understanding why there even is a cosmological constant.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Aaron Stevens Yes, exactly like we accept the Lagrangian of the standard model out of the many Lagrangians you could build in QFT. Or like we accepted the inverse square law for charges in electrostatics. What's wrong with that?
$endgroup$
– Run like hell
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Aaron Stevens Yes, exactly like we accept the Lagrangian of the standard model out of the many Lagrangians you could build in QFT. Or like we accepted the inverse square law for charges in electrostatics. What's wrong with that?
$endgroup$
– Run like hell
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
So would your question be better described as "Is dark energy the reason for the cosmological constant?"
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
So would your question be better described as "Is dark energy the reason for the cosmological constant?"
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I understand accepting mathematical models of the universe based on experiments, but it seems like to me you are using a mathematical manipulation as the basis of how you think the universe works. Although maybe I just don't fully understand what you are thinking here.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I understand accepting mathematical models of the universe based on experiments, but it seems like to me you are using a mathematical manipulation as the basis of how you think the universe works. Although maybe I just don't fully understand what you are thinking here.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
My previous comment suggest me to ask a new question: Could the cosmological constant be interpreted as a mass term in EFE's equation, like the KG term $m^2 , phi$ ? I never saw this interpretation elsewhere before. If this interpretation is valid, $Lambda$ could be associated to a kind of spacetime inertia, defining a priviligied scale (like $m$ in the KG equation).
$endgroup$
– Cham
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
My previous comment suggest me to ask a new question: Could the cosmological constant be interpreted as a mass term in EFE's equation, like the KG term $m^2 , phi$ ? I never saw this interpretation elsewhere before. If this interpretation is valid, $Lambda$ could be associated to a kind of spacetime inertia, defining a priviligied scale (like $m$ in the KG equation).
$endgroup$
– Cham
3 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The accelerated expansion of the universe is not direct evidence for dark energy, i.e. a perfect fluid contribution to the stress-energy tensor with $w = -1$. Dark energy is just by far the simplest thing that fits the data well.
It's simple to cosmologists because they are used to dealing with matter in the form of perfect fluids, and dark energy is just another one. And it's simple to particle physicists because it can be sourced by a constant term in the Lagrangian, the simplest possible term.
At the classical level, the distinction you're making is not really important. A cosmological constant, which you call a "modification of gravity", amounts to adding a constant term to the Lagrangian. But the standard description of dark energy also amounts to adding a constant term to the Lagrangian. They're the exact same thing -- a constant is a constant, it doesn't come with a little tag saying if it's "from" gravity or something else. Neither is more elegant because functionally all the equations come out the same. It's a philosophical difference, not a real difference.
But the situation changes dramatically when you account for quantum effects. That's because we know that QFT generically produces vacuum energy, i.e. sources a constant term in the Lagrangian, whether or not we put that term in classically or not. So even if you do explain the accelerated expansion by some other mechanism, you have to explain why this one isn't in effect. This is a difficult argument to make, because the contribution from QFT is already too big even if you only trust it up to tiny energy scales like $1 text{ eV}$!
Of course, there is room to work on alternative theories, such as quintessence and phantom energy; these are functionally different because they correspond to a perfect fluid with $w neq -1$. At present, observational constraints show that the acceleration can only be explained by one additional perfect fluid if that component has $w = -1$ to within about 20% accuracy. If you wish, you can think of these theories as a modification of gravity by just moving their contributions to the other side of the Einstein field equation.
My impression is that these theories simply ignore the QFT vacuum energy without explanation. That's the real elephant in the room, and probably the reason so few physicists work on explaining the accelerated expansion. We have an automatic mechanism to explain the expansion, and that mechanism appears to be $10^{120}$ times more powerful than it should be. It seems premature to start to consider additional mechanisms before understanding this one first, and there seems to be no possible understanding of it now except via the much-hated anthropic principle. The ultimate explanation of the expansion will be a job for physicists of another millenium.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Well done, I just wanted to point out that the quintessence is not the only theory put forward to explain the cosmological constant problem, I think that, maybe, the most promising one is Quantum Cosmology, as Weinberg pointed out in his 1989's paper: "The cosmological constant problem"
$endgroup$
– Kevin De Notariis
3 hours ago
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
The accelerated expansion of the universe is not direct evidence for dark energy, i.e. a perfect fluid contribution to the stress-energy tensor with $w = -1$. Dark energy is just by far the simplest thing that fits the data well.
It's simple to cosmologists because they are used to dealing with matter in the form of perfect fluids, and dark energy is just another one. And it's simple to particle physicists because it can be sourced by a constant term in the Lagrangian, the simplest possible term.
At the classical level, the distinction you're making is not really important. A cosmological constant, which you call a "modification of gravity", amounts to adding a constant term to the Lagrangian. But the standard description of dark energy also amounts to adding a constant term to the Lagrangian. They're the exact same thing -- a constant is a constant, it doesn't come with a little tag saying if it's "from" gravity or something else. Neither is more elegant because functionally all the equations come out the same. It's a philosophical difference, not a real difference.
But the situation changes dramatically when you account for quantum effects. That's because we know that QFT generically produces vacuum energy, i.e. sources a constant term in the Lagrangian, whether or not we put that term in classically or not. So even if you do explain the accelerated expansion by some other mechanism, you have to explain why this one isn't in effect. This is a difficult argument to make, because the contribution from QFT is already too big even if you only trust it up to tiny energy scales like $1 text{ eV}$!
Of course, there is room to work on alternative theories, such as quintessence and phantom energy; these are functionally different because they correspond to a perfect fluid with $w neq -1$. At present, observational constraints show that the acceleration can only be explained by one additional perfect fluid if that component has $w = -1$ to within about 20% accuracy. If you wish, you can think of these theories as a modification of gravity by just moving their contributions to the other side of the Einstein field equation.
My impression is that these theories simply ignore the QFT vacuum energy without explanation. That's the real elephant in the room, and probably the reason so few physicists work on explaining the accelerated expansion. We have an automatic mechanism to explain the expansion, and that mechanism appears to be $10^{120}$ times more powerful than it should be. It seems premature to start to consider additional mechanisms before understanding this one first, and there seems to be no possible understanding of it now except via the much-hated anthropic principle. The ultimate explanation of the expansion will be a job for physicists of another millenium.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Well done, I just wanted to point out that the quintessence is not the only theory put forward to explain the cosmological constant problem, I think that, maybe, the most promising one is Quantum Cosmology, as Weinberg pointed out in his 1989's paper: "The cosmological constant problem"
$endgroup$
– Kevin De Notariis
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The accelerated expansion of the universe is not direct evidence for dark energy, i.e. a perfect fluid contribution to the stress-energy tensor with $w = -1$. Dark energy is just by far the simplest thing that fits the data well.
It's simple to cosmologists because they are used to dealing with matter in the form of perfect fluids, and dark energy is just another one. And it's simple to particle physicists because it can be sourced by a constant term in the Lagrangian, the simplest possible term.
At the classical level, the distinction you're making is not really important. A cosmological constant, which you call a "modification of gravity", amounts to adding a constant term to the Lagrangian. But the standard description of dark energy also amounts to adding a constant term to the Lagrangian. They're the exact same thing -- a constant is a constant, it doesn't come with a little tag saying if it's "from" gravity or something else. Neither is more elegant because functionally all the equations come out the same. It's a philosophical difference, not a real difference.
But the situation changes dramatically when you account for quantum effects. That's because we know that QFT generically produces vacuum energy, i.e. sources a constant term in the Lagrangian, whether or not we put that term in classically or not. So even if you do explain the accelerated expansion by some other mechanism, you have to explain why this one isn't in effect. This is a difficult argument to make, because the contribution from QFT is already too big even if you only trust it up to tiny energy scales like $1 text{ eV}$!
Of course, there is room to work on alternative theories, such as quintessence and phantom energy; these are functionally different because they correspond to a perfect fluid with $w neq -1$. At present, observational constraints show that the acceleration can only be explained by one additional perfect fluid if that component has $w = -1$ to within about 20% accuracy. If you wish, you can think of these theories as a modification of gravity by just moving their contributions to the other side of the Einstein field equation.
My impression is that these theories simply ignore the QFT vacuum energy without explanation. That's the real elephant in the room, and probably the reason so few physicists work on explaining the accelerated expansion. We have an automatic mechanism to explain the expansion, and that mechanism appears to be $10^{120}$ times more powerful than it should be. It seems premature to start to consider additional mechanisms before understanding this one first, and there seems to be no possible understanding of it now except via the much-hated anthropic principle. The ultimate explanation of the expansion will be a job for physicists of another millenium.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Well done, I just wanted to point out that the quintessence is not the only theory put forward to explain the cosmological constant problem, I think that, maybe, the most promising one is Quantum Cosmology, as Weinberg pointed out in his 1989's paper: "The cosmological constant problem"
$endgroup$
– Kevin De Notariis
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The accelerated expansion of the universe is not direct evidence for dark energy, i.e. a perfect fluid contribution to the stress-energy tensor with $w = -1$. Dark energy is just by far the simplest thing that fits the data well.
It's simple to cosmologists because they are used to dealing with matter in the form of perfect fluids, and dark energy is just another one. And it's simple to particle physicists because it can be sourced by a constant term in the Lagrangian, the simplest possible term.
At the classical level, the distinction you're making is not really important. A cosmological constant, which you call a "modification of gravity", amounts to adding a constant term to the Lagrangian. But the standard description of dark energy also amounts to adding a constant term to the Lagrangian. They're the exact same thing -- a constant is a constant, it doesn't come with a little tag saying if it's "from" gravity or something else. Neither is more elegant because functionally all the equations come out the same. It's a philosophical difference, not a real difference.
But the situation changes dramatically when you account for quantum effects. That's because we know that QFT generically produces vacuum energy, i.e. sources a constant term in the Lagrangian, whether or not we put that term in classically or not. So even if you do explain the accelerated expansion by some other mechanism, you have to explain why this one isn't in effect. This is a difficult argument to make, because the contribution from QFT is already too big even if you only trust it up to tiny energy scales like $1 text{ eV}$!
Of course, there is room to work on alternative theories, such as quintessence and phantom energy; these are functionally different because they correspond to a perfect fluid with $w neq -1$. At present, observational constraints show that the acceleration can only be explained by one additional perfect fluid if that component has $w = -1$ to within about 20% accuracy. If you wish, you can think of these theories as a modification of gravity by just moving their contributions to the other side of the Einstein field equation.
My impression is that these theories simply ignore the QFT vacuum energy without explanation. That's the real elephant in the room, and probably the reason so few physicists work on explaining the accelerated expansion. We have an automatic mechanism to explain the expansion, and that mechanism appears to be $10^{120}$ times more powerful than it should be. It seems premature to start to consider additional mechanisms before understanding this one first, and there seems to be no possible understanding of it now except via the much-hated anthropic principle. The ultimate explanation of the expansion will be a job for physicists of another millenium.
$endgroup$
The accelerated expansion of the universe is not direct evidence for dark energy, i.e. a perfect fluid contribution to the stress-energy tensor with $w = -1$. Dark energy is just by far the simplest thing that fits the data well.
It's simple to cosmologists because they are used to dealing with matter in the form of perfect fluids, and dark energy is just another one. And it's simple to particle physicists because it can be sourced by a constant term in the Lagrangian, the simplest possible term.
At the classical level, the distinction you're making is not really important. A cosmological constant, which you call a "modification of gravity", amounts to adding a constant term to the Lagrangian. But the standard description of dark energy also amounts to adding a constant term to the Lagrangian. They're the exact same thing -- a constant is a constant, it doesn't come with a little tag saying if it's "from" gravity or something else. Neither is more elegant because functionally all the equations come out the same. It's a philosophical difference, not a real difference.
But the situation changes dramatically when you account for quantum effects. That's because we know that QFT generically produces vacuum energy, i.e. sources a constant term in the Lagrangian, whether or not we put that term in classically or not. So even if you do explain the accelerated expansion by some other mechanism, you have to explain why this one isn't in effect. This is a difficult argument to make, because the contribution from QFT is already too big even if you only trust it up to tiny energy scales like $1 text{ eV}$!
Of course, there is room to work on alternative theories, such as quintessence and phantom energy; these are functionally different because they correspond to a perfect fluid with $w neq -1$. At present, observational constraints show that the acceleration can only be explained by one additional perfect fluid if that component has $w = -1$ to within about 20% accuracy. If you wish, you can think of these theories as a modification of gravity by just moving their contributions to the other side of the Einstein field equation.
My impression is that these theories simply ignore the QFT vacuum energy without explanation. That's the real elephant in the room, and probably the reason so few physicists work on explaining the accelerated expansion. We have an automatic mechanism to explain the expansion, and that mechanism appears to be $10^{120}$ times more powerful than it should be. It seems premature to start to consider additional mechanisms before understanding this one first, and there seems to be no possible understanding of it now except via the much-hated anthropic principle. The ultimate explanation of the expansion will be a job for physicists of another millenium.
answered 3 hours ago
knzhouknzhou
44.2k11121212
44.2k11121212
$begingroup$
Well done, I just wanted to point out that the quintessence is not the only theory put forward to explain the cosmological constant problem, I think that, maybe, the most promising one is Quantum Cosmology, as Weinberg pointed out in his 1989's paper: "The cosmological constant problem"
$endgroup$
– Kevin De Notariis
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well done, I just wanted to point out that the quintessence is not the only theory put forward to explain the cosmological constant problem, I think that, maybe, the most promising one is Quantum Cosmology, as Weinberg pointed out in his 1989's paper: "The cosmological constant problem"
$endgroup$
– Kevin De Notariis
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well done, I just wanted to point out that the quintessence is not the only theory put forward to explain the cosmological constant problem, I think that, maybe, the most promising one is Quantum Cosmology, as Weinberg pointed out in his 1989's paper: "The cosmological constant problem"
$endgroup$
– Kevin De Notariis
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well done, I just wanted to point out that the quintessence is not the only theory put forward to explain the cosmological constant problem, I think that, maybe, the most promising one is Quantum Cosmology, as Weinberg pointed out in his 1989's paper: "The cosmological constant problem"
$endgroup$
– Kevin De Notariis
3 hours ago
add a comment |
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The way your question is worded currently makes it seem like you are proposing that we should just accept the cosmological constant without actually understanding why there even is a cosmological constant.
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– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
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@Aaron Stevens Yes, exactly like we accept the Lagrangian of the standard model out of the many Lagrangians you could build in QFT. Or like we accepted the inverse square law for charges in electrostatics. What's wrong with that?
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– Run like hell
4 hours ago
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So would your question be better described as "Is dark energy the reason for the cosmological constant?"
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– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
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I understand accepting mathematical models of the universe based on experiments, but it seems like to me you are using a mathematical manipulation as the basis of how you think the universe works. Although maybe I just don't fully understand what you are thinking here.
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– Aaron Stevens
4 hours ago
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My previous comment suggest me to ask a new question: Could the cosmological constant be interpreted as a mass term in EFE's equation, like the KG term $m^2 , phi$ ? I never saw this interpretation elsewhere before. If this interpretation is valid, $Lambda$ could be associated to a kind of spacetime inertia, defining a priviligied scale (like $m$ in the KG equation).
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– Cham
3 hours ago