What is the correct way to shuffle?What is a safe and accurate technique for shuffling cards?What is the best...
Run a command that requires sudo after a time has passed
Rudeness by being polite
Do error bars on probabilities have any meaning?
Why is Bernie Sanders maximum accepted donation on actblue $5600?
How do I write a maintainable, fast, compile-time bit-mask in C++?
ErrorListPlot crops error bars
Hollowed circle with crossed line and arrow
How does Artisan's Blessing handle rusted and mistreated weapons?
How bad is a Computer Science course that doesn't teach Design Patterns?
Can "ee" appear in Latin?
Getting size of dynamic C-style array vs. use of delete[]. Contradiction?
How can I differentiate duration vs starting time
Should you blow through the final approach course if the ATC forgot about you?
Why is ra lower than re while la is higher than le?
Identical projects by students at two different colleges: still plagiarism?
Is it possible to detect 100% of SQLi with a simple regex?
Why didn't Lorentz conclude that no object can go faster than light?
How do I add a strong "onion flavor" to the biryani (in restaurant style)?
Question related to Pascal Triangles and Counting Patterns
How can guns be countered by melee combat without raw-ability or exceptional explanations?
What caused Doctor Strange to repent of his selfishness and become Earth's protector?
Does an increasing sequence of reals converge if the difference of consecutive terms approaches zero?
What is the correct way to shuffle?
What happens when someone with a mature clone is turned into a vampire?
What is the correct way to shuffle?
What is a safe and accurate technique for shuffling cards?What is the best way to shuffle a large deck without damaging the cards?What are the possible ways to test a deck?What is the most effective creature that can be resurrected from the graveyard in MTG?What Is The Optimal Innistrad Sealed Deck From This Card Pool?What is the optimal method to shuffle an organised deck of cardsWhat is the best way to shuffle a large deck without damaging the cards?Is Mana Weaving ok if it's followed by a thorough shuffle?How does Magic the Gathering play differently with proxies?How much worse is Rare Re-drafting for the weakest player than opening a random pack?Do I have to shuffle with Settle The Wreckage?What land destruction enabler was wrongfully banned in the early history of Magic: the Gathering?
What is the correct way in terms of damage to the card/have a deck well shuffled for competitive tournaments, since you can make piles; I personally consider that the best way, just one for the game.
magic-the-gathering shuffling
add a comment |
What is the correct way in terms of damage to the card/have a deck well shuffled for competitive tournaments, since you can make piles; I personally consider that the best way, just one for the game.
magic-the-gathering shuffling
See wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/… §3.9 for the 'correct' rules, but it doesn't specify which technique (other than not using pile shuffling except for the start of the game).
– Glorfindel
3 hours ago
There are a few other questions which could be used as a duplicate, but I'm not completely sure. boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/5862/… and boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/2594/… are candidates.
– GendoIkari
3 hours ago
add a comment |
What is the correct way in terms of damage to the card/have a deck well shuffled for competitive tournaments, since you can make piles; I personally consider that the best way, just one for the game.
magic-the-gathering shuffling
What is the correct way in terms of damage to the card/have a deck well shuffled for competitive tournaments, since you can make piles; I personally consider that the best way, just one for the game.
magic-the-gathering shuffling
magic-the-gathering shuffling
edited 3 hours ago
Glorfindel
4,18611136
4,18611136
asked 3 hours ago
Nicolas RudiskyNicolas Rudisky
19710
19710
See wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/… §3.9 for the 'correct' rules, but it doesn't specify which technique (other than not using pile shuffling except for the start of the game).
– Glorfindel
3 hours ago
There are a few other questions which could be used as a duplicate, but I'm not completely sure. boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/5862/… and boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/2594/… are candidates.
– GendoIkari
3 hours ago
add a comment |
See wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/… §3.9 for the 'correct' rules, but it doesn't specify which technique (other than not using pile shuffling except for the start of the game).
– Glorfindel
3 hours ago
There are a few other questions which could be used as a duplicate, but I'm not completely sure. boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/5862/… and boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/2594/… are candidates.
– GendoIkari
3 hours ago
See wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/… §3.9 for the 'correct' rules, but it doesn't specify which technique (other than not using pile shuffling except for the start of the game).
– Glorfindel
3 hours ago
See wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/… §3.9 for the 'correct' rules, but it doesn't specify which technique (other than not using pile shuffling except for the start of the game).
– Glorfindel
3 hours ago
There are a few other questions which could be used as a duplicate, but I'm not completely sure. boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/5862/… and boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/2594/… are candidates.
– GendoIkari
3 hours ago
There are a few other questions which could be used as a duplicate, but I'm not completely sure. boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/5862/… and boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/2594/… are candidates.
– GendoIkari
3 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
The best way to shuffle a deck is to use multiple different methods of shuffling one after another. As the rules state pile shuffling can't be used except at the start of the game that is perhaps the best way to start your shuffle. After that the Overhand Shuffle, sliding a few cards at a time from one hand to the other so that the cards in each group stay in the same order but the group order is changed, effectively several small cuts. A Riffle Shuffle, taking two halves of the deck, bending them in the middle and letting them fall a card or two at a time onto eachother, does the best for reordering the deck, but since it involves bending the cards it also does damage to them over time, some people won't use this method because of it, and it should never be done to another person's cards for that reason. A similar effect to a riffle shuffle is the Weave or Faro Shuffle (not to be confused with mana weaving), where two halves of the deck are held with a little space between the edges of the cards for the other half's cards to slide into, this is easier with sleeves because the sleeves will create that space between the edges of the sleeves themselves. Washing the cards also does a pretty good job of randomizing, though it looks ridiculous and takes time to spread all the cards out face down and move them around randomly with your hands.
It's all a balance of the level of damage you're willing to accept to your cards, and the level of randomness needed. I will riffle my pauper deck but not my $1000+ EDH.
One thing to mention: "Washing" your cards could cause your deck to become "boxed", where the tops of the cards don't all align. Since Magic backs are vertically and horizontally asymmetric, this could cause your deck to be considered "marked" in a tournament setting if you're not careful. Sleeves don't help this problem, because sleeves are not vertically symmetric either (one side is open, the other is not). Also, rubbing your unsleeved cards around on a table is probably the best possible way to damage them.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
Also, FWIW I riffle shuffle my Legacy decks on a regular basis, so there's that :p
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
@Ertai87 I have never seen anyone consider cards being boxed as marked, though I suppose someone could be petty that way, or someone could intentionally box their land or something to abuse it. And as I said, it's all about the risks of damage you're willing to accept, I only have a few decks ever unsleeved, my pauper is the most notable, being less than $20 total.
– Andrew
2 hours ago
Speaking as a certified judge, one of the things I look for when doing a deck check is, if I see a deck is boxed, I look for patterns in the boxing. If I see a pattern, even if the pattern is unintentional, the deck is considered marked "with possibility of advantage" (note: "possibility of advantage" is the only justification required, not "intent to use advantage"), and you get a Game Loss, no questions asked (at Comp REL where IPG is in effect). Don't box your deck, it's not worth it.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
1
It doesn't happen often, because most people who box their decks do do it by accident and do not create a pattern (as discussed above). However, the probability, when boxing your deck, that you do not create a pattern by accident, is nonzero, so just to protect yourself from getting a GL you do not deserve, the best practice is to just not box your deck at all.
– Ertai87
1 hour ago
|
show 3 more comments
1) "Pile shuffling" is not actually shuffling, in that it doesn't randomize your deck. Let's say you have a deck of 60 cards and you number the cards 1-60. Then you "pile shuffle" those 60 cards into 8 piles and number those piles 1-8. Then you know for a fact that card 1 is at the bottom of pile 1, card 2 is at the bottom of pile 2, and so on, and you know that card 9 is second from the bottom of pile 1, then card 17, 25, 33, 41, 49, and 57. Since you deterministically know the order of the cards in each pile, this method is not considered randomization, and is therefore not "shuffling". This is why judges (and some players, thankfully) have begun to call the method "pile counting"; it is an efficient method of counting the cards in your deck to make sure you haven't lost any, but that's all.
2) As a result of point 1), you are not allowed to "pile shuffle" your deck in a tournament for the purpose of randomization. You are allowed to do it for the purpose of counting, but you still need to shuffle thoroughly afterwards.
3) As for an actual answer to your question, the answer is "use sleeves". If you use sleeves, damaging your card through standard mash shuffling is very uncommon, and mash shuffling is the most efficient way to shuffle, in that you are shuffling a random number of cards from the deck into random positions in the remainder of the deck. Since you may not fully randomize the bottom few cards of the deck using a mash shuffle, you should also use other shuffling methods such as overhand shuffle. Personally, I haven't found bridge (riffle) shuffles to damage my cards all that much, as long as you don't angle your bridge too high and bend the cards too much.
4) As an addendum to "use sleeves", sleeves can sometimes rip during a mash shuffle and the sharp edge of the sleeve could nick the card inside of the broken sleeve. In which case, you can use perfect-fit sleeves ("inner sleeves") inside of your normal sleeves. Then when the outer sleeve would nick your card, instead it nicks your inner sleeve and keeps your card safe. I've never damaged a card using a mash shuffle when my deck was "double-sleeved" (using both regular sleeves and inner sleeves).
New contributor
add a comment |
How to shuffle (theoretically)
It takes 7 riffle shuffles to randomize a deck of (52) cards. If you're playing a 60 card format 7 riffle/mash shuffles are sufficient. If you're playing commander which uses 100-card decks, you'll need to riffle shuffle 9 times to be randomized enough.
How to shuffle (phycially)
Riffle shuffles are easy enough to do with practice. You don't actually need to "bridge" the card as long as the cards are interleaving frequently and non-perfectly. I often shuffle at the corners/sides and then just push the cards together.
As described in other answers, sleeved cards "mash" together easily to effectively replicate the mechanics of a riffle shuffle. Cut the deck in half and push one half into the other block of cards. They will naturally interleave, imitating a riffle shuffle.
If you play commander and need to shuffle 100-card behemoths, shuffling is harder. Unsleeved (*gasp*) commander decks can still be riffle shuffled fairly easily. And if you have large hands you might be able to mash shuffle a sleeved 100-card deck. Otherwise, you'll have to get creative. My best advice is to split the deck into two 50-card piles. Then when you riffle/mash shuffle, shuffle together the top halves of each of the piles and repeat with the remaining bottoms. Repeat 8 more times.
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "147"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fboardgames.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f45187%2fwhat-is-the-correct-way-to-shuffle%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
The best way to shuffle a deck is to use multiple different methods of shuffling one after another. As the rules state pile shuffling can't be used except at the start of the game that is perhaps the best way to start your shuffle. After that the Overhand Shuffle, sliding a few cards at a time from one hand to the other so that the cards in each group stay in the same order but the group order is changed, effectively several small cuts. A Riffle Shuffle, taking two halves of the deck, bending them in the middle and letting them fall a card or two at a time onto eachother, does the best for reordering the deck, but since it involves bending the cards it also does damage to them over time, some people won't use this method because of it, and it should never be done to another person's cards for that reason. A similar effect to a riffle shuffle is the Weave or Faro Shuffle (not to be confused with mana weaving), where two halves of the deck are held with a little space between the edges of the cards for the other half's cards to slide into, this is easier with sleeves because the sleeves will create that space between the edges of the sleeves themselves. Washing the cards also does a pretty good job of randomizing, though it looks ridiculous and takes time to spread all the cards out face down and move them around randomly with your hands.
It's all a balance of the level of damage you're willing to accept to your cards, and the level of randomness needed. I will riffle my pauper deck but not my $1000+ EDH.
One thing to mention: "Washing" your cards could cause your deck to become "boxed", where the tops of the cards don't all align. Since Magic backs are vertically and horizontally asymmetric, this could cause your deck to be considered "marked" in a tournament setting if you're not careful. Sleeves don't help this problem, because sleeves are not vertically symmetric either (one side is open, the other is not). Also, rubbing your unsleeved cards around on a table is probably the best possible way to damage them.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
Also, FWIW I riffle shuffle my Legacy decks on a regular basis, so there's that :p
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
@Ertai87 I have never seen anyone consider cards being boxed as marked, though I suppose someone could be petty that way, or someone could intentionally box their land or something to abuse it. And as I said, it's all about the risks of damage you're willing to accept, I only have a few decks ever unsleeved, my pauper is the most notable, being less than $20 total.
– Andrew
2 hours ago
Speaking as a certified judge, one of the things I look for when doing a deck check is, if I see a deck is boxed, I look for patterns in the boxing. If I see a pattern, even if the pattern is unintentional, the deck is considered marked "with possibility of advantage" (note: "possibility of advantage" is the only justification required, not "intent to use advantage"), and you get a Game Loss, no questions asked (at Comp REL where IPG is in effect). Don't box your deck, it's not worth it.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
1
It doesn't happen often, because most people who box their decks do do it by accident and do not create a pattern (as discussed above). However, the probability, when boxing your deck, that you do not create a pattern by accident, is nonzero, so just to protect yourself from getting a GL you do not deserve, the best practice is to just not box your deck at all.
– Ertai87
1 hour ago
|
show 3 more comments
The best way to shuffle a deck is to use multiple different methods of shuffling one after another. As the rules state pile shuffling can't be used except at the start of the game that is perhaps the best way to start your shuffle. After that the Overhand Shuffle, sliding a few cards at a time from one hand to the other so that the cards in each group stay in the same order but the group order is changed, effectively several small cuts. A Riffle Shuffle, taking two halves of the deck, bending them in the middle and letting them fall a card or two at a time onto eachother, does the best for reordering the deck, but since it involves bending the cards it also does damage to them over time, some people won't use this method because of it, and it should never be done to another person's cards for that reason. A similar effect to a riffle shuffle is the Weave or Faro Shuffle (not to be confused with mana weaving), where two halves of the deck are held with a little space between the edges of the cards for the other half's cards to slide into, this is easier with sleeves because the sleeves will create that space between the edges of the sleeves themselves. Washing the cards also does a pretty good job of randomizing, though it looks ridiculous and takes time to spread all the cards out face down and move them around randomly with your hands.
It's all a balance of the level of damage you're willing to accept to your cards, and the level of randomness needed. I will riffle my pauper deck but not my $1000+ EDH.
One thing to mention: "Washing" your cards could cause your deck to become "boxed", where the tops of the cards don't all align. Since Magic backs are vertically and horizontally asymmetric, this could cause your deck to be considered "marked" in a tournament setting if you're not careful. Sleeves don't help this problem, because sleeves are not vertically symmetric either (one side is open, the other is not). Also, rubbing your unsleeved cards around on a table is probably the best possible way to damage them.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
Also, FWIW I riffle shuffle my Legacy decks on a regular basis, so there's that :p
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
@Ertai87 I have never seen anyone consider cards being boxed as marked, though I suppose someone could be petty that way, or someone could intentionally box their land or something to abuse it. And as I said, it's all about the risks of damage you're willing to accept, I only have a few decks ever unsleeved, my pauper is the most notable, being less than $20 total.
– Andrew
2 hours ago
Speaking as a certified judge, one of the things I look for when doing a deck check is, if I see a deck is boxed, I look for patterns in the boxing. If I see a pattern, even if the pattern is unintentional, the deck is considered marked "with possibility of advantage" (note: "possibility of advantage" is the only justification required, not "intent to use advantage"), and you get a Game Loss, no questions asked (at Comp REL where IPG is in effect). Don't box your deck, it's not worth it.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
1
It doesn't happen often, because most people who box their decks do do it by accident and do not create a pattern (as discussed above). However, the probability, when boxing your deck, that you do not create a pattern by accident, is nonzero, so just to protect yourself from getting a GL you do not deserve, the best practice is to just not box your deck at all.
– Ertai87
1 hour ago
|
show 3 more comments
The best way to shuffle a deck is to use multiple different methods of shuffling one after another. As the rules state pile shuffling can't be used except at the start of the game that is perhaps the best way to start your shuffle. After that the Overhand Shuffle, sliding a few cards at a time from one hand to the other so that the cards in each group stay in the same order but the group order is changed, effectively several small cuts. A Riffle Shuffle, taking two halves of the deck, bending them in the middle and letting them fall a card or two at a time onto eachother, does the best for reordering the deck, but since it involves bending the cards it also does damage to them over time, some people won't use this method because of it, and it should never be done to another person's cards for that reason. A similar effect to a riffle shuffle is the Weave or Faro Shuffle (not to be confused with mana weaving), where two halves of the deck are held with a little space between the edges of the cards for the other half's cards to slide into, this is easier with sleeves because the sleeves will create that space between the edges of the sleeves themselves. Washing the cards also does a pretty good job of randomizing, though it looks ridiculous and takes time to spread all the cards out face down and move them around randomly with your hands.
It's all a balance of the level of damage you're willing to accept to your cards, and the level of randomness needed. I will riffle my pauper deck but not my $1000+ EDH.
The best way to shuffle a deck is to use multiple different methods of shuffling one after another. As the rules state pile shuffling can't be used except at the start of the game that is perhaps the best way to start your shuffle. After that the Overhand Shuffle, sliding a few cards at a time from one hand to the other so that the cards in each group stay in the same order but the group order is changed, effectively several small cuts. A Riffle Shuffle, taking two halves of the deck, bending them in the middle and letting them fall a card or two at a time onto eachother, does the best for reordering the deck, but since it involves bending the cards it also does damage to them over time, some people won't use this method because of it, and it should never be done to another person's cards for that reason. A similar effect to a riffle shuffle is the Weave or Faro Shuffle (not to be confused with mana weaving), where two halves of the deck are held with a little space between the edges of the cards for the other half's cards to slide into, this is easier with sleeves because the sleeves will create that space between the edges of the sleeves themselves. Washing the cards also does a pretty good job of randomizing, though it looks ridiculous and takes time to spread all the cards out face down and move them around randomly with your hands.
It's all a balance of the level of damage you're willing to accept to your cards, and the level of randomness needed. I will riffle my pauper deck but not my $1000+ EDH.
answered 3 hours ago
AndrewAndrew
4,700734
4,700734
One thing to mention: "Washing" your cards could cause your deck to become "boxed", where the tops of the cards don't all align. Since Magic backs are vertically and horizontally asymmetric, this could cause your deck to be considered "marked" in a tournament setting if you're not careful. Sleeves don't help this problem, because sleeves are not vertically symmetric either (one side is open, the other is not). Also, rubbing your unsleeved cards around on a table is probably the best possible way to damage them.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
Also, FWIW I riffle shuffle my Legacy decks on a regular basis, so there's that :p
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
@Ertai87 I have never seen anyone consider cards being boxed as marked, though I suppose someone could be petty that way, or someone could intentionally box their land or something to abuse it. And as I said, it's all about the risks of damage you're willing to accept, I only have a few decks ever unsleeved, my pauper is the most notable, being less than $20 total.
– Andrew
2 hours ago
Speaking as a certified judge, one of the things I look for when doing a deck check is, if I see a deck is boxed, I look for patterns in the boxing. If I see a pattern, even if the pattern is unintentional, the deck is considered marked "with possibility of advantage" (note: "possibility of advantage" is the only justification required, not "intent to use advantage"), and you get a Game Loss, no questions asked (at Comp REL where IPG is in effect). Don't box your deck, it's not worth it.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
1
It doesn't happen often, because most people who box their decks do do it by accident and do not create a pattern (as discussed above). However, the probability, when boxing your deck, that you do not create a pattern by accident, is nonzero, so just to protect yourself from getting a GL you do not deserve, the best practice is to just not box your deck at all.
– Ertai87
1 hour ago
|
show 3 more comments
One thing to mention: "Washing" your cards could cause your deck to become "boxed", where the tops of the cards don't all align. Since Magic backs are vertically and horizontally asymmetric, this could cause your deck to be considered "marked" in a tournament setting if you're not careful. Sleeves don't help this problem, because sleeves are not vertically symmetric either (one side is open, the other is not). Also, rubbing your unsleeved cards around on a table is probably the best possible way to damage them.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
Also, FWIW I riffle shuffle my Legacy decks on a regular basis, so there's that :p
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
@Ertai87 I have never seen anyone consider cards being boxed as marked, though I suppose someone could be petty that way, or someone could intentionally box their land or something to abuse it. And as I said, it's all about the risks of damage you're willing to accept, I only have a few decks ever unsleeved, my pauper is the most notable, being less than $20 total.
– Andrew
2 hours ago
Speaking as a certified judge, one of the things I look for when doing a deck check is, if I see a deck is boxed, I look for patterns in the boxing. If I see a pattern, even if the pattern is unintentional, the deck is considered marked "with possibility of advantage" (note: "possibility of advantage" is the only justification required, not "intent to use advantage"), and you get a Game Loss, no questions asked (at Comp REL where IPG is in effect). Don't box your deck, it's not worth it.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
1
It doesn't happen often, because most people who box their decks do do it by accident and do not create a pattern (as discussed above). However, the probability, when boxing your deck, that you do not create a pattern by accident, is nonzero, so just to protect yourself from getting a GL you do not deserve, the best practice is to just not box your deck at all.
– Ertai87
1 hour ago
One thing to mention: "Washing" your cards could cause your deck to become "boxed", where the tops of the cards don't all align. Since Magic backs are vertically and horizontally asymmetric, this could cause your deck to be considered "marked" in a tournament setting if you're not careful. Sleeves don't help this problem, because sleeves are not vertically symmetric either (one side is open, the other is not). Also, rubbing your unsleeved cards around on a table is probably the best possible way to damage them.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
One thing to mention: "Washing" your cards could cause your deck to become "boxed", where the tops of the cards don't all align. Since Magic backs are vertically and horizontally asymmetric, this could cause your deck to be considered "marked" in a tournament setting if you're not careful. Sleeves don't help this problem, because sleeves are not vertically symmetric either (one side is open, the other is not). Also, rubbing your unsleeved cards around on a table is probably the best possible way to damage them.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
Also, FWIW I riffle shuffle my Legacy decks on a regular basis, so there's that :p
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
Also, FWIW I riffle shuffle my Legacy decks on a regular basis, so there's that :p
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
@Ertai87 I have never seen anyone consider cards being boxed as marked, though I suppose someone could be petty that way, or someone could intentionally box their land or something to abuse it. And as I said, it's all about the risks of damage you're willing to accept, I only have a few decks ever unsleeved, my pauper is the most notable, being less than $20 total.
– Andrew
2 hours ago
@Ertai87 I have never seen anyone consider cards being boxed as marked, though I suppose someone could be petty that way, or someone could intentionally box their land or something to abuse it. And as I said, it's all about the risks of damage you're willing to accept, I only have a few decks ever unsleeved, my pauper is the most notable, being less than $20 total.
– Andrew
2 hours ago
Speaking as a certified judge, one of the things I look for when doing a deck check is, if I see a deck is boxed, I look for patterns in the boxing. If I see a pattern, even if the pattern is unintentional, the deck is considered marked "with possibility of advantage" (note: "possibility of advantage" is the only justification required, not "intent to use advantage"), and you get a Game Loss, no questions asked (at Comp REL where IPG is in effect). Don't box your deck, it's not worth it.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
Speaking as a certified judge, one of the things I look for when doing a deck check is, if I see a deck is boxed, I look for patterns in the boxing. If I see a pattern, even if the pattern is unintentional, the deck is considered marked "with possibility of advantage" (note: "possibility of advantage" is the only justification required, not "intent to use advantage"), and you get a Game Loss, no questions asked (at Comp REL where IPG is in effect). Don't box your deck, it's not worth it.
– Ertai87
2 hours ago
1
1
It doesn't happen often, because most people who box their decks do do it by accident and do not create a pattern (as discussed above). However, the probability, when boxing your deck, that you do not create a pattern by accident, is nonzero, so just to protect yourself from getting a GL you do not deserve, the best practice is to just not box your deck at all.
– Ertai87
1 hour ago
It doesn't happen often, because most people who box their decks do do it by accident and do not create a pattern (as discussed above). However, the probability, when boxing your deck, that you do not create a pattern by accident, is nonzero, so just to protect yourself from getting a GL you do not deserve, the best practice is to just not box your deck at all.
– Ertai87
1 hour ago
|
show 3 more comments
1) "Pile shuffling" is not actually shuffling, in that it doesn't randomize your deck. Let's say you have a deck of 60 cards and you number the cards 1-60. Then you "pile shuffle" those 60 cards into 8 piles and number those piles 1-8. Then you know for a fact that card 1 is at the bottom of pile 1, card 2 is at the bottom of pile 2, and so on, and you know that card 9 is second from the bottom of pile 1, then card 17, 25, 33, 41, 49, and 57. Since you deterministically know the order of the cards in each pile, this method is not considered randomization, and is therefore not "shuffling". This is why judges (and some players, thankfully) have begun to call the method "pile counting"; it is an efficient method of counting the cards in your deck to make sure you haven't lost any, but that's all.
2) As a result of point 1), you are not allowed to "pile shuffle" your deck in a tournament for the purpose of randomization. You are allowed to do it for the purpose of counting, but you still need to shuffle thoroughly afterwards.
3) As for an actual answer to your question, the answer is "use sleeves". If you use sleeves, damaging your card through standard mash shuffling is very uncommon, and mash shuffling is the most efficient way to shuffle, in that you are shuffling a random number of cards from the deck into random positions in the remainder of the deck. Since you may not fully randomize the bottom few cards of the deck using a mash shuffle, you should also use other shuffling methods such as overhand shuffle. Personally, I haven't found bridge (riffle) shuffles to damage my cards all that much, as long as you don't angle your bridge too high and bend the cards too much.
4) As an addendum to "use sleeves", sleeves can sometimes rip during a mash shuffle and the sharp edge of the sleeve could nick the card inside of the broken sleeve. In which case, you can use perfect-fit sleeves ("inner sleeves") inside of your normal sleeves. Then when the outer sleeve would nick your card, instead it nicks your inner sleeve and keeps your card safe. I've never damaged a card using a mash shuffle when my deck was "double-sleeved" (using both regular sleeves and inner sleeves).
New contributor
add a comment |
1) "Pile shuffling" is not actually shuffling, in that it doesn't randomize your deck. Let's say you have a deck of 60 cards and you number the cards 1-60. Then you "pile shuffle" those 60 cards into 8 piles and number those piles 1-8. Then you know for a fact that card 1 is at the bottom of pile 1, card 2 is at the bottom of pile 2, and so on, and you know that card 9 is second from the bottom of pile 1, then card 17, 25, 33, 41, 49, and 57. Since you deterministically know the order of the cards in each pile, this method is not considered randomization, and is therefore not "shuffling". This is why judges (and some players, thankfully) have begun to call the method "pile counting"; it is an efficient method of counting the cards in your deck to make sure you haven't lost any, but that's all.
2) As a result of point 1), you are not allowed to "pile shuffle" your deck in a tournament for the purpose of randomization. You are allowed to do it for the purpose of counting, but you still need to shuffle thoroughly afterwards.
3) As for an actual answer to your question, the answer is "use sleeves". If you use sleeves, damaging your card through standard mash shuffling is very uncommon, and mash shuffling is the most efficient way to shuffle, in that you are shuffling a random number of cards from the deck into random positions in the remainder of the deck. Since you may not fully randomize the bottom few cards of the deck using a mash shuffle, you should also use other shuffling methods such as overhand shuffle. Personally, I haven't found bridge (riffle) shuffles to damage my cards all that much, as long as you don't angle your bridge too high and bend the cards too much.
4) As an addendum to "use sleeves", sleeves can sometimes rip during a mash shuffle and the sharp edge of the sleeve could nick the card inside of the broken sleeve. In which case, you can use perfect-fit sleeves ("inner sleeves") inside of your normal sleeves. Then when the outer sleeve would nick your card, instead it nicks your inner sleeve and keeps your card safe. I've never damaged a card using a mash shuffle when my deck was "double-sleeved" (using both regular sleeves and inner sleeves).
New contributor
add a comment |
1) "Pile shuffling" is not actually shuffling, in that it doesn't randomize your deck. Let's say you have a deck of 60 cards and you number the cards 1-60. Then you "pile shuffle" those 60 cards into 8 piles and number those piles 1-8. Then you know for a fact that card 1 is at the bottom of pile 1, card 2 is at the bottom of pile 2, and so on, and you know that card 9 is second from the bottom of pile 1, then card 17, 25, 33, 41, 49, and 57. Since you deterministically know the order of the cards in each pile, this method is not considered randomization, and is therefore not "shuffling". This is why judges (and some players, thankfully) have begun to call the method "pile counting"; it is an efficient method of counting the cards in your deck to make sure you haven't lost any, but that's all.
2) As a result of point 1), you are not allowed to "pile shuffle" your deck in a tournament for the purpose of randomization. You are allowed to do it for the purpose of counting, but you still need to shuffle thoroughly afterwards.
3) As for an actual answer to your question, the answer is "use sleeves". If you use sleeves, damaging your card through standard mash shuffling is very uncommon, and mash shuffling is the most efficient way to shuffle, in that you are shuffling a random number of cards from the deck into random positions in the remainder of the deck. Since you may not fully randomize the bottom few cards of the deck using a mash shuffle, you should also use other shuffling methods such as overhand shuffle. Personally, I haven't found bridge (riffle) shuffles to damage my cards all that much, as long as you don't angle your bridge too high and bend the cards too much.
4) As an addendum to "use sleeves", sleeves can sometimes rip during a mash shuffle and the sharp edge of the sleeve could nick the card inside of the broken sleeve. In which case, you can use perfect-fit sleeves ("inner sleeves") inside of your normal sleeves. Then when the outer sleeve would nick your card, instead it nicks your inner sleeve and keeps your card safe. I've never damaged a card using a mash shuffle when my deck was "double-sleeved" (using both regular sleeves and inner sleeves).
New contributor
1) "Pile shuffling" is not actually shuffling, in that it doesn't randomize your deck. Let's say you have a deck of 60 cards and you number the cards 1-60. Then you "pile shuffle" those 60 cards into 8 piles and number those piles 1-8. Then you know for a fact that card 1 is at the bottom of pile 1, card 2 is at the bottom of pile 2, and so on, and you know that card 9 is second from the bottom of pile 1, then card 17, 25, 33, 41, 49, and 57. Since you deterministically know the order of the cards in each pile, this method is not considered randomization, and is therefore not "shuffling". This is why judges (and some players, thankfully) have begun to call the method "pile counting"; it is an efficient method of counting the cards in your deck to make sure you haven't lost any, but that's all.
2) As a result of point 1), you are not allowed to "pile shuffle" your deck in a tournament for the purpose of randomization. You are allowed to do it for the purpose of counting, but you still need to shuffle thoroughly afterwards.
3) As for an actual answer to your question, the answer is "use sleeves". If you use sleeves, damaging your card through standard mash shuffling is very uncommon, and mash shuffling is the most efficient way to shuffle, in that you are shuffling a random number of cards from the deck into random positions in the remainder of the deck. Since you may not fully randomize the bottom few cards of the deck using a mash shuffle, you should also use other shuffling methods such as overhand shuffle. Personally, I haven't found bridge (riffle) shuffles to damage my cards all that much, as long as you don't angle your bridge too high and bend the cards too much.
4) As an addendum to "use sleeves", sleeves can sometimes rip during a mash shuffle and the sharp edge of the sleeve could nick the card inside of the broken sleeve. In which case, you can use perfect-fit sleeves ("inner sleeves") inside of your normal sleeves. Then when the outer sleeve would nick your card, instead it nicks your inner sleeve and keeps your card safe. I've never damaged a card using a mash shuffle when my deck was "double-sleeved" (using both regular sleeves and inner sleeves).
New contributor
edited 3 hours ago
New contributor
answered 3 hours ago
Ertai87Ertai87
2415
2415
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
How to shuffle (theoretically)
It takes 7 riffle shuffles to randomize a deck of (52) cards. If you're playing a 60 card format 7 riffle/mash shuffles are sufficient. If you're playing commander which uses 100-card decks, you'll need to riffle shuffle 9 times to be randomized enough.
How to shuffle (phycially)
Riffle shuffles are easy enough to do with practice. You don't actually need to "bridge" the card as long as the cards are interleaving frequently and non-perfectly. I often shuffle at the corners/sides and then just push the cards together.
As described in other answers, sleeved cards "mash" together easily to effectively replicate the mechanics of a riffle shuffle. Cut the deck in half and push one half into the other block of cards. They will naturally interleave, imitating a riffle shuffle.
If you play commander and need to shuffle 100-card behemoths, shuffling is harder. Unsleeved (*gasp*) commander decks can still be riffle shuffled fairly easily. And if you have large hands you might be able to mash shuffle a sleeved 100-card deck. Otherwise, you'll have to get creative. My best advice is to split the deck into two 50-card piles. Then when you riffle/mash shuffle, shuffle together the top halves of each of the piles and repeat with the remaining bottoms. Repeat 8 more times.
add a comment |
How to shuffle (theoretically)
It takes 7 riffle shuffles to randomize a deck of (52) cards. If you're playing a 60 card format 7 riffle/mash shuffles are sufficient. If you're playing commander which uses 100-card decks, you'll need to riffle shuffle 9 times to be randomized enough.
How to shuffle (phycially)
Riffle shuffles are easy enough to do with practice. You don't actually need to "bridge" the card as long as the cards are interleaving frequently and non-perfectly. I often shuffle at the corners/sides and then just push the cards together.
As described in other answers, sleeved cards "mash" together easily to effectively replicate the mechanics of a riffle shuffle. Cut the deck in half and push one half into the other block of cards. They will naturally interleave, imitating a riffle shuffle.
If you play commander and need to shuffle 100-card behemoths, shuffling is harder. Unsleeved (*gasp*) commander decks can still be riffle shuffled fairly easily. And if you have large hands you might be able to mash shuffle a sleeved 100-card deck. Otherwise, you'll have to get creative. My best advice is to split the deck into two 50-card piles. Then when you riffle/mash shuffle, shuffle together the top halves of each of the piles and repeat with the remaining bottoms. Repeat 8 more times.
add a comment |
How to shuffle (theoretically)
It takes 7 riffle shuffles to randomize a deck of (52) cards. If you're playing a 60 card format 7 riffle/mash shuffles are sufficient. If you're playing commander which uses 100-card decks, you'll need to riffle shuffle 9 times to be randomized enough.
How to shuffle (phycially)
Riffle shuffles are easy enough to do with practice. You don't actually need to "bridge" the card as long as the cards are interleaving frequently and non-perfectly. I often shuffle at the corners/sides and then just push the cards together.
As described in other answers, sleeved cards "mash" together easily to effectively replicate the mechanics of a riffle shuffle. Cut the deck in half and push one half into the other block of cards. They will naturally interleave, imitating a riffle shuffle.
If you play commander and need to shuffle 100-card behemoths, shuffling is harder. Unsleeved (*gasp*) commander decks can still be riffle shuffled fairly easily. And if you have large hands you might be able to mash shuffle a sleeved 100-card deck. Otherwise, you'll have to get creative. My best advice is to split the deck into two 50-card piles. Then when you riffle/mash shuffle, shuffle together the top halves of each of the piles and repeat with the remaining bottoms. Repeat 8 more times.
How to shuffle (theoretically)
It takes 7 riffle shuffles to randomize a deck of (52) cards. If you're playing a 60 card format 7 riffle/mash shuffles are sufficient. If you're playing commander which uses 100-card decks, you'll need to riffle shuffle 9 times to be randomized enough.
How to shuffle (phycially)
Riffle shuffles are easy enough to do with practice. You don't actually need to "bridge" the card as long as the cards are interleaving frequently and non-perfectly. I often shuffle at the corners/sides and then just push the cards together.
As described in other answers, sleeved cards "mash" together easily to effectively replicate the mechanics of a riffle shuffle. Cut the deck in half and push one half into the other block of cards. They will naturally interleave, imitating a riffle shuffle.
If you play commander and need to shuffle 100-card behemoths, shuffling is harder. Unsleeved (*gasp*) commander decks can still be riffle shuffled fairly easily. And if you have large hands you might be able to mash shuffle a sleeved 100-card deck. Otherwise, you'll have to get creative. My best advice is to split the deck into two 50-card piles. Then when you riffle/mash shuffle, shuffle together the top halves of each of the piles and repeat with the remaining bottoms. Repeat 8 more times.
answered 55 mins ago
ryanyuyuryanyuyu
1,519721
1,519721
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Board & Card Games Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fboardgames.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f45187%2fwhat-is-the-correct-way-to-shuffle%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
See wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/… §3.9 for the 'correct' rules, but it doesn't specify which technique (other than not using pile shuffling except for the start of the game).
– Glorfindel
3 hours ago
There are a few other questions which could be used as a duplicate, but I'm not completely sure. boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/5862/… and boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/2594/… are candidates.
– GendoIkari
3 hours ago